Which countries do you respect and despise?

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Closed
Nov 2016
1,531
Indus Valley, Pakistan
Do you really want to see a 70-year-old country leave behind its people and die? Have you learnt nothing from Syria? I know it's hard to see Pakistanis as humanbeings but trust me... THEY ARE!

They are people. They are like you, or us.

And I don't know about you but I would be pretty shaken up right now.

Whatever the cause of their current sh-t is... I don't care. All I care about is Pakistan's wellbeing. And dear Pakistanis, all I want you to do is to get well! ALL I WANT!

And what really bothers me as to think of these Indians out there who don't see Pakistanis as people, and if anything ever happens to Pakistan, India can kiss my as* BECAUSE IF ANYTHING EVER HAPPENS TO HER I am blowing up the entire city of Mumbai.

I don't care what anyone says...I love Pakistanis!
If they ever start committing suicide attacks because of f-cking Indians, I will kill myself too, taking down thousands of Hindus with me!

Get well, Pakistan!
The world needs to know that Pakistan has still supporters...PAKISTAN needs to know that she still has her supporters.

I love you Pakistanis, just know that, OK?

Leave Pakistan alone!
Thanks for that. We are the underdog with few friends as you point out. And it is probably best we both ignore the rants of some members here.


Most of Vajraditya's assertions, which were all actually based on proper historical evidence,
No, they are emphatically not based on any seriously objective historical sources. I mean his claim that what is now Pakistan was on the fringes of civilization is absurd. Indus River which is the geographic fulcrum of Pakistan has been the axis of history - at least in South Asia. Indeed most of what is history in South Asia is history of what is now Pakistan. I listed IVC, Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh, Taxila, Sirkap, Greco-Buddhist kingdoms, Gandhara etc etc is is what is now Pakistan. It's quite easy to check - just Google them to find out where they are.
 

Afrasiyab

Ad Honorem
Sep 2007
6,378
Is this kind of emotional, passionate, stupid and highly opinionated rant even relevant to a history forum? Most of Vajraditya's assertions, which were all actually based on proper historical evidence, were in response to Bullit's rants against India in this thread and several others; so your response comes off as as worthless as any.

How f-cking dare, any Indian out there, make fun of Pakistanis after all they have been through? They lost Bangladesh, they went through the Afghan refugee crisis... India has been a user, a cheater, and now Pakistan is going through the battle of 'who really owns' Kashmir.

All you Indians care about is cows, and making a scene out of a piece of beef... THEY ARE PEOPLE!

What you don't realize is that Pakistan gives you all this some sort of distinct identity, and all you do is to say a bunch of crap about her. Pakistanis have been restrained for years...Their scam businesses are for a reason because all you Indians want is more, more, more!

Leave her alone!

You are lucky she is even your neighbor, you bastards!

LEAVE PAKISTAN ALONE!
 
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Nov 2016
1,531
Indus Valley, Pakistan
and this 'fringe' enjoys the same equation as Belguim/German and Pak/India. The populations of both are 1:7 in India's favour thus my referance to being underdog.

* Belguim ~ 11 million
* Germany ~ 80 million

* Pak ~ 190 million
* India ~ 1,270 million
 
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Jan 2016
1,637
India
No, they are emphatically not based on any seriously objective historical sources. I mean his claim that what is now Pakistan was on the fringes of civilization is absurd. Indus River which is the geographic fulcrum of Pakistan has been the axis of history - at least in South Asia. Indeed most of what is history in South Asia is history of what is now Pakistan. I listed IVC, Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Mehr Garh, Taxila, Sirkap, Greco-Buddhist kingdoms, Gandhara etc etc is is what is now Pakistan. It's quite easy to check - just Google them to find out where they are.
Well, they actually are. Your post actually proves nothing but only serves to confirm our suspicion that you have an extremely poor understanding of south Asian history in particular and a very underdeveloped sense of time and chronology in general.

It is an academic consensus that most of recorded history save late modern times, Pakistan has been a peripheral region, indeed very much on the fringes of Indic civilisation. This is confirmed by a variety of historical evidence including archaeological, numismatic, literary and so forth. First of all, IVC is not at all relevant to modern Pakistan or even India, it being a very obscure civilisation of which we know very little. Indeed, we do not even know what language the inhabitants of IVC spoke, and in all likelihood, they were related to either Dravidians of south India or Austro-Asiatics that have over time been reduced to fringes of eastern India. It is however certain that they were not Indo-Aryans or Muslims like people of modern day Pakistan, so I'm not sure what reason a modern Pakistani (or even an Indian) has to be 'proud' of IVC, since it is highly irrelevant to discussions of this type and has zero continuity with any modern society. I think you were the one to mention in other thread how Mauryas and Guptas existed 'zillion years ago' and have little to do with modern India. This was duly pointed by Vajraditya, and while much to my entertainment, exposes your hypocrisy and emotional investment in historical discourse.

Indic civilisation, on the other hand, is very different from a 'Pakistani civilisation' in that it is not mythical. It was a real civilising force and its expansive impetus was felt over a vast region in Asia, leaving profound and widespread influence in places as far away as Java and Tokharistan. I do not know what makes you think Indo-Greeks and Gandhara constitute 'most of what is history in South Asia'. It is a very laughable assertion, to say the least. I won't accuse you of dishonesty because this might well be what you actually believe, for I'm sure you have no idea about most of south Asian history. Indian history is full of tens of kingdoms like Indo-Greeks, and they are indeed but a minor episode in the entire history of the subcontinent. It really tells a lot about Pakistani history when all you can come up with a peripheral outpost of Gangetic civilisation (Gandhara) and another peripheral colony of the Hellenistic world (Indo-Greeks of Bactria that invaded and conquered Pakistan). Gangetic plains and southern India on the other hand have had an actual imperial tradition, and can boast of actual empires like Guptas, Rashtrakutas, Cholas, Harsha, Palas that were one of the world's chief powers in their times and left a lasting influence not just in India but also in other parts of Asia. Can you name a single native empire of Pakistan before the Sikh Empire of Ranjit Singh? What is more, Pakistani history is devoid of a single pre-modern state that has left behind any evidence of a literary culture, monetary trade, scientific and philosophical discourse, and any significant geo-political or cultural significance whatsoever. A single district in Andhra probably produced more inscribed documents in 100 years than the entire region of Pakistan did in its entire pre-Islamic history. It is rightly observed by Andre Wink that Pakistan was very much peripheral to the Indic world, and both Punjab and Sindh constituted a mobile nomadic frontier to a more sedentary and developed Gangetic plains, while they were themselves populated by primitive tribal pastoralists. This is also observed by pre-modern observers such as Huien Tsang, Al Beruni, Mughal sources and several British authors as have been cited by Vajraditya in the other thread.

In conclusion, with all the academic support on the opposite side, it is not a very tenable position that what is today Pakistan has any real native tradition of material culture and civilisation before late modern times. There is simply no denying this fact except when you are ready to lie through your teeth in face of established facts and academic consensuses.
 
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civfanatic

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
3,318
Des Moines, Iowa
It is true that the territory of modern-day Pakistan was quite backwards until modern times. Even during the reign of Akbar, the subah of Multan (which lay wholly in modern-day Pakistan) gave a revenue of only 3.78 million rupees, while the subah of Delhi which includes lands of modern-day Haryana and west UP gave a revenue of around 15 million rupees (that is about four times more than Multan) and Berar in the northern Deccan gave a revenue of about 16 million rupees. Of all provinces in the Mughal empire, only the province of Kabul in modern-day Afghanistan was poorer than Multan (i.e. much of modern-day Pakistan). By medieval times, even areas like Rajasthan were much richer than areas like Sindh; the province of Ajmer under Akbar gave about twice as much revenue as Multan.
 
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Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
5,029
India
There is more homicide in Pakistan because gun culture is far more prominent compared to India so is the killing culture, keeping guns is a symbol of pride in Pakistan. In extreme North West, tribal areas are 'no go area' even for Pakistani government, they would kill each other for silly things. The Southern city of Karachi is fighting a inter-ethnic crisis, the ethnic tensions run so deep among Muhajirs(Urdu speakers), Pashtuns and Sindhis, all have their own neighbourhood they fight and kill each other for the control of the city. Apart from that radicalization also lead to more violence in the country. 2 out of the four provinces are suffering with unrest, Balochistan with violent separatist movement and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa under Taliban terrorism.
 
Jun 2012
1,780
chandigarh
I think built feels defensive because he feels that it is a attack on ethics and intelligence of pakistan. Growth and development of civilization has pretty much nothing to do with people and everything to do with geography. Built needs to understand that pakistan was'nt as urbanized and more tribal than India precisely because gangetic plane, even tamil nadu, godhavri delta are way more fertile than any region in pakistan and hence could never really compete with material culture of gangetic plains and other region. Even IVC existed precisely because it was irrigated by 3 rivers: ganga, Indus and Gaggar Harkha and region of sindh, rajasthan and gujarat were extremely fertile and as soon as gakkar harkha died, sindh and rajasthan became a desert IVC collapsed. Subsequently most logical course would be to find the next fertile region and hence people of IVC expanded into gangetic plane.
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
We are Muslims. We are commanded to kill. It's Saturday and I am feeling charitable. This should make your day.
It was an honest question of the difference between murder frequency in India in contrast to Pakistan. But anyway, if that is your answer, so that is it.
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
First of all it is a fact not something my opinion.

For every hundred thousand people, only 3 murders take place in India.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqntCPjpDUAhWJLo8KHcluAhYQFghUMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftimesofindia.indiatimes.com%2Findia%2FMurder-count-in-India-falls-to-its-lowest-level-since-1960s%2Farticleshow%2F48635001.cms&usg=AFQjCNEcjOfAwQKtTSP8aI19nrrzjrzxdA&sig2=Z7xX3C-VZ3R7W3GTS8vCFQ

While in Pakistan this is more than double.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj06NXpj5DUAhWJpo8KHRUWBZcQFggjMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftribune.com.pk%2Fstory%2F694501%2Fhomicides-in-2012-pakistan-worst-in-south-asia%2F&usg=AFQjCNFhhdQNTdB8S6bG7C6Dn-BsPCGRVA&sig2=RScwBbw7zgwGnmLV7H08wA

Reason is that Pakistanis are mainly descendants of tribals who were much into violence till 19th century, British rule made them settled somewhat but old habits die hard.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiPpd-ujpDUAhVFto8KHb4vCewQFghHMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftribune.com.pk%2Fstory%2F890089%2F8-pakistani-cities-feature-in-worlds-deadliest-cities-index%2F&usg=AFQjCNFHKmgUdZU79EKOcfXW22_ZjytuCA&sig2=DCY9bRnFPkOq3ymaueUPpA

8 Pakistani cities most dangerous cities of world.

Pakistan is one of rare cases where literacy is decreasing per year

https://t.co/ZZD3ANfVsF

Now for this I have explanation. If people with far less HDI, GNP per capita and much violent rates shed tears for some people in India(Bullit's untouchable concern is so touching) then it is natural that they will achieve things like this.
Thank you for the efforts made and the cited sources which you posted in explaining such matter.
 
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