who dealt more damage to nazi germany during ww2?

which force was more devastating to the nazis?

  • USA

    Votes: 15 10.7%
  • Soviet Union

    Votes: 111 79.3%
  • equal

    Votes: 14 10.0%

  • Total voters
    140

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Soviet Union got 10 billion supplies which was 2-3% of the Soviet GDP...
Really 2-3%?

Total Lend-Lease amounted $50.1 Bil. (612.88 Bil. in 2008 prices), of which 31.4 Bil. was delivered to the United Kingdom, 11.3 billion - in the USSR ...
So in 2008 prices, Russia received about 138 billion dollars of Lend-Lease supplies

And what was its GDP? I do not have Russia's GDP in the 1942-1945. But in 1939 its GDP was $ 417Bil., in 1941 - 359Bil. - according to Mark Harrison, The Economics of World War II: Six Great Powers in International Comparison

We would expect that with the loss of huge production capacities in 1941-1942 Russian GDP could decline in 1942-1945 - as compared to 1941 - not less than for a quarter, to the amount about $270Bil.

Thus, from mid-1941 to May 1945 the total Russian GDP was about $1.125Bil.

Lend-lease, thus, was not 2 - 3 percent of Russian GDP during the war between Russia and Germany. It was more than 12%! And your figure is quite incorrect.

And when we consider that in 1941 the USSR defense spending was 28% of its national incom (Harrison), and that the huge share of the Lend-Lease was on the needs of the Russian army and military industries, we will see that the role of the lend-lease to provide the Red Army with everything it needed in the war was quite critical

And if you said Stalin in 1942, that the Lend-Lease is not essential for Russia, I think he would just beat you with his fists for your words
 
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Oct 2015
188
City
Really 2-3%?

So in 2008 prices, Russia received about 138 billion dollars of Lend-Lease supplies

And what was its GDP? I do not have Russia's GDP in the 1942-1945. But in 1939 its GDP was $ 417Bil., in 1941 - 359Bil. - according to Mark Harrison, The Economics of World War II: Six Great Powers in International Comparison

We would expect that with the loss of huge production capacities in 1941-1942 Russian GDP could decline in 1942-1945 - as compared to 1941 - not less than for a quarter, to the amount about $270Bil.

Thus, from mid-1941 to May 1945 the total Russian GDP was about $1.125Bil.

Lend-lease, thus, was not 2 - 3 percent of Russian GDP during the war between Russia and Germany. It was more than 12%! And your figure is quite incorrect.

And when we consider that in 1941 the USSR defense spending was 28% of its national incom (Harrison), and that the huge share of the Lend-Lease was on the needs of the Russian army and military industries, we will see that the role of the lend-lease to provide the Red Army with everything it needed in the war was quite critical

And if you said Stalin in 1942, that the Lend-Lease is not essential for Russia, I think he would just beat you with his fists for your words
Very funny. Nice try to manipulate.

Have you even bothered to read the book of Harrison? I guess you didn't. Because he brings figures of GDP according to 1990 prices here is the table of these numbers. And his book was written in 1998.



Here is the calculator of inflation: Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2016

So in 2016 prices USSR received 148 billion of lend-lease (I took 1944 to 2016 inflation because in 44-45 USSR received majority of lend-lease), while its GDP in 2016 prices was:

1941 - 651 billion
1942 - 497 billion
1943 - 553 billion
1944 - 656 billion
1945 - 622 billion

Total: 2979

So we get 4.44%

Okay that's 4.44% is slightly higher than my 2-3% because I was taking 2-3% from my memory. It's not ideal one I can't remember exactly all the figures.
 
Jun 2015
1,252
Scotland
If you've read Harrison you will also recall he said any GDP figures for the Soviet economy in the 1930s and 40s aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's economy was a command economy and was not integrated into the world econony so any figure given could be wildly inaccurate. The figures I gave for production for specific produce can be at least partly relied on and give a better picture of the disparity between the German and Soviet economies.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Very funny. Nice try to manipulate.

Have you even bothered to read the book of Harrison? I guess you didn't. Because he brings figures of GDP according to 1990 prices here is the table of these numbers. And his book was written in 1998.



Here is the calculator of inflation: Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2016

So in 2016 prices USSR received 148 billion of lend-lease (I took 1944 to 2016 inflation because in 44-45 USSR received majority of lend-lease), while its GDP in 2016 prices was:

1941 - 651 billion
1942 - 497 billion
1943 - 553 billion
1944 - 656 billion
1945 - 622 billion

Total: 2979

So we get 4.44%

Okay that's 4.44% is slightly higher than my 2-3% because I was taking 2-3% from my memory. It's not ideal one I can't remember exactly all the figures.
- First of all. you can not use all GDP for 1941 and 1945 because lend-lease supplies started - as far as I know - since October 1941 - and the war with Germany finished in May 1945 - if we talk here of the war with Germany. And the Russian GDP fell in October-December 1941 very sufficently - as very much part of the military plants was lost by the time - or was on its way to the east.

Secondly, I also talk of the 1942 - the most critical year for Russia in that war when it had a maximal chance to fall.
 
Oct 2015
188
City
- First of all. you can not use all GDP for 1941 and 1945 because lend-lease supplies started - as far as I know - since October 1941 - and the war with Germany finished in May 1945 - if we talk here of the war with Germany. And the Russian GDP fell in October-December 1941 very sufficently - as very much part of the military plants was lost by the time - or was on its way to the east.

Secondly, I also talk of the 1942 - the most critical year for Russia in that war when it had a maximal chance to fall.
We can take almost the whole 1945, beacuse let me remind you that WW II was over not in May 1945 but in September 1945, moreover Soviet Union was still receiving lend lease even after Japanese capitulation and was terminated on 20 the September 1945.

Let's make it your way, let's take the most critical period:



Since 1941 to June 1944 USSR received 5,9 billion that's 79 billion in todays prices.

GDP of USSR:



We take

1941: 359 - 179 (minus half a year) = 180
1942: 274
1943: 305
1944: 362 - 182 (minus half a year) = 180

Total: 939

Using the http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ we get that 939 billion in 1990 prices is 1700 billion in 2016 prices

So within the period of June 22 1941 to June 1944 while USSR was actively engaged in war with Germany, it received aid that equals 4,65% of its GDP.
 
Aug 2014
1,050
Canada
Why do you all feel compelled to convert 1940s bucks into the present, or the 1990s? Just use the real numbers and save your elaborate conversions.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
So we get 4.44%

Okay that's 4.44% is slightly higher than my 2-3% because I was taking 2-3% from my memory. It's not ideal one I can't remember exactly all the figures.
- 4% - I do not think that it is from your memory. It is a very well known figure in Russia in the lend-lease issue, announced after the war by Voznesensky.

During the war he was the 1st Deputy Chairman of People's Commissars (Sovnarkom) of the USSR - the Russian government.

In 1947 he published a monograph "The war economy of the USSR during the World War II," for which he was awarded the Stalin Prize of the first degree (1948). The figure of 4% is from that book.

... If you compare the size of the allies' supply of industrial goods in the USSR with the size of industrial production in the socialist enterprises of the USSR during the same period, we find that the proportion of these supplies in relation to domestic production in the period of war economy will be only about 4%.
- N. Voznesensky. War economy of the USSR during World War II - M .: Gospolitizdat 1948

L.F. Ilicheva in a speech at the XXII Congress of the CPSU said: "The book whan it was a manuscript Stalin read with a pencil in the hands and made his marks and even inserted something"

So we can say that you have borrowed this figure from Comrade Stalin.

I have already mentined that your heart is greatly softened when you see the data of the Moscow Agitprop in such issues. In my younger years I also have got that disease. And I understand you very well now.

You have decided to be more accurate in the figures? Good.

I will also correct my calculations and figures the same way. Here are all the figures not fot the US$ of 2016 - I shall use the USD rate of 1990 - as Harrison made.

Russia received the lend-lease deliveries from the US of $ 11.3 billion - for 1990 it is 85.4 billion (if we take as a basis the "average" year of the war for Russia - 1943).

Your sum of the GDP of Russia 1941-1945 seems worthless. Lend-Lease began, as I remember, in October 1941 (UK began shipping to Russia since June 1941), and the war with Germany ended in early May 1941. Therefore, the most we can do is to take half of the GDP of Russia for 1941 and 1945 year. In 1990 prices it is US $ 351 billion for two years. Thus, Russia's GDP during its war with Germany is, if you believe the Harrison figures, 1.292 billion dollars

At the same time, I note that the Harrison figures of Russia's GDP of 1940s are highly controversial. They are perceived with skepticism by such a prominent author in the topic of the Lend-Lease as Stettinius. They are built on a not very convincing system proposed by the Russian economist Leontiev. These figures of Harrison look too much high.

At the same time, according to my information, the supplies of the UK and Canada to Russia was around 15% of the US Lend-Lease. And if we consider them, the total supply of the Allies to Russia during its war with Germany are around $ 98.2 bil. (in US$ 1990)

Thus, the total supplies of the United States, Britain and Canada to Russia during its war with Germany make up the Lend-Lease are 7.6% of the Russian GDP for the this time.

Not your 4% and not my 12%.
And, as I see it, the resulting figure is the same as I have a good idea with a different figure - the truth lies exactly in the middle

According to the director of the International Center of History and Sociology of the Second World War and its consequences of the HSE (Higher School of Economics) Oleg Budnitskii, help from the Allies was not a 4% - it was 7% of production capacity of the USSR

And what is the percentage of these deliveries compared with Russia's own military expenditure in this war?

The share of these expenditures in Russian GDP from 1941 to 1945 has changed as follows:


%
1941 - 20.5
1942 - 32.8
1943 - 29.9
1944 - 28.1
1945 - 30.8

Military spending before and during the Second World War - Illarionov
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Take the figures of Russia's GDP in Harrison and data on the share of military expenditure in its GDP and get a table. The figures are in billion US$ - or in %

Russia GDP % DEFENCE COSTS
1941 359 20.50% 73.60
1942 274 32.80 89.87
1943 305 29.90 91.20
1944 362 28.10 101.72
1945 343 30.80 105.64
1643 462.03 - 28.12%

As we can see, Russian military spending in 1941-1945 averaged 28.1% of its GDP.

Deliveries of the allies to Russia - 98.2 bil. US dollars in 1990 prices. From total Russian military spending (its own) of that period - US$ 462 bil. it means the 21.3% of Russian military expenditures for the years 1941-1945.

And taking into account the dates of beginning and end of the war with Germany (Mid-Summer 1941 and early May 1945) - the ally supplies were about 23.4% of the Russian own military spendings during the war with Germany.

We remember that the main supply range were the scarce or even critical war materials or arms (in certain peiod) for the Russia. On that background the role of the ally supplies for Russia is getting quite visible.

You probably know that just a small part of the one and a half thousand of the excellent German jet fighters Me-262 could be used in battles of 1944-1945 for one and the only reason - fot the extreme shortage of jet fuel?

Many German aviation units could stay on the grond since the end of the 1944 for the same cause. They could raise in the air only one or two pairs of the fighters. The very thick armor on new tanks Tiger-II was of very poor quality due to the shortage of nickel, molybdenum and manganese in German industry since the start of their series.

And it is only a small part of the reality with which the army and the military production in Russia could also meet in 1942. With all the consequences for the combat effectiveness of the Red Army on the whole - and for the course of its military operations in 1942-1945

At the beginning of the war with the Germans

... Gross industrial output of the USSR from June to November 1941 decreased by 2.1 times.

Release of rolled ferrous metals - the basis of military industry - in December 1941 decreased against June 1941 3.1 times, while production of rolled ferrous metals, without which the military productionit is impossible - during the same period decreased by 430 times.
430 times!

Production of ball bearings, without which it is impossible to produce any aircraft or tanks or artillery, fell 21 times.
It was a hard shortage of a large number of items of raw materials, equipment and high-end machines in Russian military economy during in the war.

And here is a list of US exports to Russia -

Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials

Once again - it's just the US supplies. Withous the British and Canadian ones.

As I said, 1942 was the absolutely critical year for Russia in the war. And it had a great chance of losing campaign as in the fall of 1942 the situation for it was at the edge of a precipice. The breakthrough of the Germans and their capture of Stalingrad and Baku meant that the Russians deprived of almost all their oil - as the Germans already seized Grozny and Maikop oil sources.

In 1941-1942 the Red Army received from its allies 4,697 tanks
- A lot or a little?

At the beginning of the Stalingrad operation Russia used 230 tanks.

Where Russians would be by the beginning of the 1943 without that allies supplies? I have no idea.

Add to this the acute shortage of aviation fuel - despite the fact that Russians had to block the German "air bridge" to Stalingrad, etc. etc..

And you still did not respond to my remark that every Soviet soldiers on the German front in 1941-1945 received 2 kilos of "Lend-Lease" every day they were in the front line.

And I took for my calculation the figure of 5 million Russian soldiers at the front - although most of the war on the front lines on a certain day fought no more than 2-3 million of Russian soldiers. Therefore, you can safely assume that the Russian soldier had an average of 3 kilograms of the Lend-Lease help per day
 
Oct 2015
188
City
- 4% - I do not think that it is from your memory. It is a very well known figure in Russia in the lend-lease issue, announced after the war by Voznesensky.
I didn't say that ''4%'' is from my memory, read carefully. And I don't know who is Voznesensky, I did my own calculations which is possible to do thanks to a lot of available content. If his number corresponds to mine, then he also made right calculations.

Deliveries of the allies to Russia - 98.2 bil. US dollars in 1990 prices. From total Russian military spending (its own) of that period - US$ 462 bil. it means the 21.3% of Russian military expenditures for the years 1941-1945
Another manipulation, because lend-lease was not just military stuff it was materials, food, clothing etc, so you can' take military expenditures and take a % of the entire lend-lease. Stop trying to derive favorable numbers for your wishful thinking, you saw GDP and you saw % of lend-lease from it.

A lot or a little?

At the beginning of the Stalingrad operation Russia used 230 tanks.
No comments. Production of Light, Medium and Heavy tanks by years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Your 4600 tanks sink in the ocean. Germany had much higher % of Czech tanks.

Your sum of the GDP of Russia 1941-1945 seems worthless. Lend-Lease began, as I remember, in October 1941 (UK began shipping to Russia since June 1941), and the war with Germany ended in early May 1941. Therefore, the most we can do is to take half of the GDP of Russia for 1941 and 1945 year. In 1990 prices it is US $ 351 billion for two years. Thus, Russia's GDP during its war with Germany is, if you believe the Harrison figures, 1.292 billion dollars
Did you bother to read my post #205? This is exactly what I did, took half of 1941 and the result was 4,44%.

And in 1945 we can't take half, because lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union were terminated on the 20th September, you don't even know that, gosh.
 
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Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Perfect Gentleman, may I tell you of the situation at the Russian side at a critical period of the war, even in the presence of the Lend-Lease?

The famous Russian "trehtonka" - truck for 3 tons of cargo - in the version of 1942 was issued with only one headlight and without the doors. Instead, they had two pieces of cotton. It also had brakes only for back wheels. Of economy

To tell you that during the war the Russian industry has not released any special military truck - except of these superprimitive polutorka and trehtonka?

And no doors - despite the fact that by the end of 1942, the temperature at Stalingrad region fell to minus 30, and in February 1942 it fell below 40. It was the coldest winter in those region over the past one hundred and fifty years.

Do you know that during the war the majority of Russian soldiers had no breast pockets on their uniform shirts - гимнастерка? Of economy. Where they wore their personal documents - it is unclear



This is the lack of resources in its Russian meaning

You can go on telling here of the great deeds of Russia in the war.

But what the Russian soldier would cost without the Lend-Lease - half-dead from hunger, stripped and unshoed - and with acute shortage of gunpowder in his ammunition and explosives in his grenades? Many would have cost the Soviet T-34s without American aluminum, which makes the body of their diesel engines - and with hideous armor, which would not have enough American heavy metals?

How much value would have Soviet aircrafts - if half of them all the war remained on the ground without the US aviation gasoline? And half of Russian bombs would have been without the American TNT?

What would make Russian officers and generals without having US phones and radio stations - and without the telephone cord that came from America? What would the Russian warriors have done with their Russian guns and mortars their factories produced - if there were any of the half a million of the American heavy-duty trucks to haul them to the combat positions?

And what the soldiers will do with every second gun and mortar -If Russians had no gunpowder and explosives for their shells?

This list I can continue indefinitely.

Although I am quite aware that a major factor in the Russian victory over the Germans was the loud Russian "Hurrah!"
 
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Oct 2015
188
City
Perfect Gentleman, may I tell you of the situation at the Russian side at a critical period of the war, even in the presence of the Lend-Lease?
So what? Somebody said it was vacation time?

But what the Russian soldier would cost without the Lend-Lease - half-dead from hunger, stripped and unshoed - and with acute shortage of gunpowder in his ammunition and explosives in his grenades? Many would have cost the Soviet T-34s without American aluminum, which makes the body of their diesel engines - and with hideous armor, which would not have enough American heavy metals?

How much value would have Soviet aircrafts - if half of them all the war remained on the ground without the US aviation gasoline? And half of Russian bombs would have been without the American TNT?

What would make Russian officers and generals without having US phones and radio stations - and without the telephone cord that came from America? What would the Russian warriors have done with their Russian guns and mortars their factories produced - if there were any of the half a million of the American heavy-duty trucks to haul them to the combat positions?

And what the soldiers will do with every second gun and mortar -If Russians had no gunpowder and explosives for their shells?

This list I can continue indefinitely.
Without 4.4%? That's laughable statement at best, I'm not even going to comment that wishful thinking.

Do you know that during the war the majority of Russian soldiers had no breast pockets on their uniform shirts
Very scientific argument. And without lend-lease not just majority but all of them would be without pockets? That's a serious problem which certainly defined the outcome of WW II. American pockets damaged Germany more than the Red Army indeed.
 
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