Who doesn't believe in vaccines?

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#81
Idiots. I don't know how high your i.q. is above "average" (I assume it is quite considerably so based on your posts and the fact that you hang out here) and I know it is difficult for smarter than "average" (100 i.q.) people to internalize this---but there are as many people BELOW that line as there are above it (many of these people work in Hollywood and some even win Oscars). Have you ever tried to explain something patently obvious to someone only to finally give up when it dawns on you that they literally just do not possess the capacity to wrap their brains around it any more than I have the capacity to dunk a basketball?
Surprisingly, anti-vaxxer stance is not fully IQ- or education-related.

One of the strong driving elements might be parental guilt. Imagine someone having a kid with autism or some disability. The mother would be constantly asking herself, did I drink something wrong, did I eat something wrong during pregnancy, was it that glass of wine, once?

And suddenly comes the guy who says, not your fault, not your genes, it is all Merck with its vaccines!

These mothers get absolved, and also get the strong cause. It is like a new religion.

Then, of course, there are small closed, often religious, communities, where ideas and views are strongly peer-driven. What can change the attitude of such a community? If some outsider known to them and successful (but not like Bill Gates - more like some athlete, some local celebrity) starts vaccinating his kids. Then it may change their perception of the situation.

But I don’t believe that limiting access to education will help. We are speaking about groups prone to feel victimized, feel martyrs, already. It won’t work. Financial consequences might be more effective.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
32,511
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#82
One of the strong driving elements might be parental guilt. Imagine someone having a kid with autism or some disability. The mother would be constantly asking herself, did I drink something wrong, did I eat something wrong during pregnancy, was it that glass of wine, once?
I can sympathise with parental guilt. My sister is autistic. For many years, my mum blamed herself, because she put a substance on my sister's thumb when she was a baby to stop her sucking it, and she was non verbal for many months after that. My mum thought that was what triggered it. She is not an anti-vaxxer, but I have seen the effect of parental guilt.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#84
I can sympathise with parental guilt. My sister is autistic. For many years, my mum blamed herself, because she put a substance on my sister's thumb when she was a baby to stop her sucking it, and she was non verbal for many months after that. My mum thought that was what triggered it. She is not an anti-vaxxer, but I have seen the effect of parental guilt.
I am sorry for your mom and your sister, Naomasa. Good that your mom did not become an antivaxxer, and I hope she stopped blaming herself. Wish they will get some help and hope, as medicine is, slowly, developing.
 
Likes: Naomasa298

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#85
I am also thinking that the world of the parent of a child with disabilities is incredibly lonely. So the other reason for this antivaxxer movement may lie in the fact that from other antivaxxer parents, these moms get some support (and hope, too!). What can one say to the parent of the child with autism? That today, there is no definite treatment, that everything is experimental. But the group of antivaxxer/nature-healing moms does push something saying that it will make the difference. Like gluten-free diet, or chelation, or some other unproven, expensive, at times scary, treatments. None of them work, of course, but for a while, the parents get this glimmer of hope.
And of course on top of these - I still consider them grassroots - parental bodies, there is the huge industry, that makes money. All these gummy bears, lifestyle products, and all that our talentless actresses sell in their catalogues.
 
Feb 2019
259
California
#86
I can sympathise with parental guilt. My sister is autistic. For many years, my mum blamed herself, because she put a substance on my sister's thumb when she was a baby to stop her sucking it, and she was non verbal for many months after that. My mum thought that was what triggered it. She is not an anti-vaxxer, but I have seen the effect of parental guilt.
It seems that personality types that lean toward the pessimistic are more prone to fixating on a particular theory that might justify their compulsion to attach blame to themselves. Conversely, eternal optimists are perhaps readier to accept profferred "excuses" (often well-justified, of course) for assigning negative outcomes to the fates and moving on. This gross over-generalization brought to you by a rank amatuer.
 

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
4,902
Netherlands
#87
I am also thinking that the world of the parent of a child with disabilities is incredibly lonely. So the other reason for this antivaxxer movement may lie in the fact that from other antivaxxer parents, these moms get some support (and hope, too!). What can one say to the parent of the child with autism? That today, there is no definite treatment, that everything is experimental. But the group of antivaxxer/nature-healing moms does push something saying that it will make the difference. Like gluten-free diet, or chelation, or some other unproven, expensive, at times scary, treatments. None of them work, of course, but for a while, the parents get this glimmer of hope.
And of course on top of these - I still consider them grassroots - parental bodies, there is the huge industry, that makes money. All these gummy bears, lifestyle products, and all that our talentless actresses sell in their catalogues.
I apologize for the strong words, but this is BS (Bernie Sanders).
Among parents there isn't a lot of discussion of a vaccine-autism link. Even less about a treatment as there isn't any, not even remotely experimental. The only things there are are diet or medicine to lessen the worst edges (but they work in the same way as with a "normal" person). The main thing is behavioral support and a shitload of patience.

All that being said, vaccines aren't the cure-all (pun intended) some people make it out to be. Every medicine has side-effects and it depends on the patient on whether or not these side effects are bad. With testing and research these effects can be minimized, but so far they cant be eliminated. Plus imo nowadays people get too many of them.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#88
I apologize for the strong words, but this is BS (Bernie Sanders).
Among parents there isn't a lot of discussion of a vaccine-autism link. Even less about a treatment as there isn't any, not even remotely experimental. The only things there are are diet or medicine to lessen the worst edges (but they work in the same way as with a "normal" person). The main thing is behavioral support and a shitload of patience.

All that being said, vaccines aren't the cure-all (pun intended) some people make it out to be. Every medicine has side-effects and it depends on the patient on whether or not these side effects are bad. With testing and research these effects can be minimized, but so far they cant be eliminated. Plus imo nowadays people get too many of them.
I don’t think you understood me. You mean, regular parents. I imply, parents who put their kids on diets, enemas and whatnot. There are too many. Just because you are a normal parent, don’t think others are. And think of this, Joop makes a lot of money, meaning, lots of people believe in this ...stuff, right?

Vaccines aren’t cure for all, but remember the latest Ebola scare? People were asking, will vaccine be ever available? So, when the situation is scary, they help.
 

Grimald

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
5,892
Hercynian Forest
#89
Unfortunately, there are many prejudices against vaccinations, and more generally, against other aspects of modern medicine in general, e.g. against cancer medicine.

Often, these prejudices involve conspiracy theories, where physicians, authorities and the pharmaceutical industry all work together in order to cover up the truth from citizens. The motives attributed to the conspiracy vary, from just making profits at the cost of the patients, to conducting large-scale experiments or aiming at world domination.

What can we do about it? Probably the best way is self-criticism of the medical community - and education. I think the medical community of the past often acted in a paternalistic manner towards patients, without seeing the need for explaining the patient what options he had and how a specific test or therapy actually works. Also, there were many scandals, some of which also involved the pharmaceutical industry and endangered patients.

I think that much of this has already changed. However, we should not have illusions: Explaining and educating takes time, and time is money. If we want physicians to have more time to explain things, this will cost money.

Also, laypersons in most cases can only understand so much, and beyond that, they will still have to trust their physician. Modern medicine and research is utterly complicated, from the biological concepts to the statistical analysis.
 

Grimald

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
5,892
Hercynian Forest
#90
Although my inner conspiracy theorist could probably be made to believe they were dangerous, as I am cynical and mistrustful enough of all forms of centralized solutions to social problems already. I don't know about the claims of them "causing" autism though. I have a hard time believing anyone actually understand the clear causality behind autism - if anything modern society itself might be just as much to blame for such increases...

We did have some pretty credible case in Sweden of vaccines causing narcolepsy related to H1N1. This is regrettable, but it is a matter of benefits/ costs to society at large. Right now I think the benefits outweigh the costs...
I think it is important to stress that every medical procedure has effects and side effects, and, as physicians, be open about that. It is a matter of the balance of effects and side effects, or say, benefits and risks, that is important when approving a new drug. This approval process is not different for vaccinations than it is for other drugs.

Vaccinations also come with benefits and risks. However, there is currently no controversy in the medical community about vaccinations causing or promoting autism; instead, the whole affair is well-known in the medical community as a disaster of communication that may have cost lives.

Medical research does not consist in doing one or two small studies and then knowing everything about the research question. Context and the big picture is important. How was this study conducted? Is it biologically plausible? Is the statistics sound? How do we evaluate it in the context of other studies that may come up with contradicting results? This is why there are expert panels and advisory boards who review novel research in the field and discuss what conclusions to draw.

Still, I am fully in favor of challenging our current knowledge. This is, after all, how medical and scientific progress comes about. The hypothesis that there is a causal link between vaccinations and autism was examined - and it was refuted many years ago.
 

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