Who had bigger impact – the ostro(goths) on the Italian Peninsula or the slavs on Balkans?

Jan 2015
1,522
Bosnia and Herzegovina
#42
You cannot in your fiat interpretation disregard the fact, a monumental and crucial fact, that the Ostrogoths took over roman provinces in the Balkans, directly from the Romans, and Germans did no such thing. It's in the title of the topic, and it is beyond historical dispute. The Slavs took over the Roman provinces, and those were the Ostrogoths. The fiat claim is they became Germans when they crossed over to Italy? Of course not. That is only possible in the blah blah bloo blo blooo heads.
So now Slavs also conquered Italy?

You are mixing up Goths and Germans, or better to say, you are equating them solely because of a fiat definition, without any historical support. You cannot equate goths and Germans of the period!
We've already proposed these Ostrogoths may have been a mix of Germanic and Slavic peoples. Historical support goes in favor of Germanic, in any case. YOU, on the other hand, have no historical foundation to claim the Ostrogoths were Slavs for sure. Your basic assumption that, because Slavs are found living in the Balkans later that means Ostrogoths were Slavs, is flawed. First of all, no one even said Ostrogoths settled the Balkans. They ruled over a part of it. Most likely there was a ruling military elite with families ruling over local population, just like in many other cases of the period (Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, etc.)

In the historical period of the fall of the roman provinces, Germans are not the only ones who can claim the Gothic history of the period. Slavs are also Goths, and specifically they are Ostrogoths. And they might even be Visigoths because of the Merovingian dynasty of the period which is a parallel to the eastern Moravian kingdom, and the Visigoths came from the Balkans, albeit they did not stay in the Balkans but continued westward.
Well, that's your theory. Interestingly or not, there are still remnants of Goths as far east as Crimea. If you're interested in what type of language they spoke until a few centuries ago do look it up.

Thiudimer is Cudimir and recorded in later times as a Slavic name, of subsequent rulers as well. There is nothing germanic about Thuidimer. Even more so because it is not an isolated name but his brothers were Vidimir and Valamir.
Thiudimer is a Germanic name. Valamir or Walamar is also Germanic. Vidimir is Withimer. You're just using the Slavic cognates of the only three relatable names, like Waldemar and Vladimir having the same origin. But from that same dynasty you have names like Theodoric, Athalaric, Theodahadm, Witiges, Ildibad, Eraric, Totila, Theia. What do these sound like in Slavic?

In the same period and territory they, the Slavs, had a Great Moravian Kingdrom, while the Visigoths had Merovingian dynasty in the West.
What does Great Moravia have to do with anything? That's nearly 300 years after the Ostrogoths and nearly a century and a half after the fall of the Iberian kingdom of the Visigoths. Merovingians were Frankish, by the way.

Language, culture and names are not enough evidence for you to determine they were Germanic but pointing out they ruled over Balkans somehow proves they're Slavic...
 
Likes: macon
#45
Is that your evidence? The title of this thread?
Yes, that is the crucial point that escapes you. Who took over the roman provinces? The title of the topic tells you, that is the indisputable historical fact. The Slavs took over the western Balkans, the roman provinces.

When you understand that indisputable fact, then you can read Jordanes and opine on Goths. Until then, you are lost. You don't know what is what.
 
Jan 2015
1,522
Bosnia and Herzegovina
#46
Yes, that is the crucial point that escapes you. Who took over the roman provinces? The title of the topic tells you, that is the indisputable historical fact. The Slavs took over the western Balkans, the roman provinces.

When you understand that indisputable fact, then you can read Jordanes and opine on Goths. Until then, you are lost. You don't know what is what.
Here's a little timeline for you:

- (493 - 553) length of the Ostrogothic kingdom
- Second half of 6th and early 7th century is the arrival of Slavs according to Jordanes and Procopius.

To simplify it for you further in case you still don't get it - Slavs came to the Balkans just after the collapse of the Ostrogothic kingdom.
 
Likes: macon
#47
Thiudimer is a Germanic name. Valamir or Walamar is also Germanic. Vidimir is Withimer. You're just using the Slavic cognates of the only three relatable names, like Waldemar and Vladimir having the same origin
That is the problem right there. You cannot exclude Slavs from the Gothic heritage of the period that deals with the fall of the Roman provinces. You can do that only on bias and fiat, but not on historical information.
You are equating Goths with Germans exclusively and that is simply inconsistent with history. Those are Gothic names, not German names, and Goths include Slavs as well.
 
#48
You cannot in your fiat interpretation disregard the fact, a monumental and crucial fact, that the Ostrogoths took over roman provinces in the Balkans, directly from the Romans, and Germans did no such thing. It's in the title of the topic, and it is beyond historical dispute. The Slavs took over the Roman provinces, and those were the Ostrogoths. The fiat claim is they became Germans when they crossed over to Italy? Of course not. That is only possible in the blah blah bloo blo blooo heads.

You are mixing up Goths and Germans, or better to say, you are equating them solely because of a fiat definition, without any historical support. You cannot equate goths and Germans of the period!

In the historical period of the fall of the roman provinces, Germans are not the only ones who can claim the Gothic history of the period. Slavs are also Goths, and specifically they are Ostrogoths. And they might even be Visigoths because of the Merovingian dynasty of the period which is a parallel to the eastern Moravian kingdom, and the Visigoths came from the Balkans, albeit they did not stay in the Balkans but continued westward.

Thiudimer is Cudimir and recorded in later times as a Slavic name, of subsequent rulers as well. There is nothing germanic about Thuidimer. Even more so because it is not an isolated name but his brothers were Vidimir and Valamir.

In the same period and territory they, the Slavs, had a Great Moravian Kingdrom, while the Visigoths had Merovingian dynasty in the West.
When your argument reaches the level of "blah blah bloo blo blooo" you are lost.
 
Sep 2012
3,458
Bulgaria
#50
Invaluable contribution idd, still great most of us are still waiting for sources. We got the general idea could you please provide books, articles etc about this theory, the names of the historians who support it in order to understand it better.
 
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