Who were the Sea Peoples?

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
5,035
Australia
There was no collapse. It is an artificial construct to try and reconcile the dodgy chronology we've been saddled with.
 
Jun 2017
80
Thailand
There was no collapse. It is an artificial construct to try and reconcile the dodgy chronology we've been saddled with.
then what happened to the Hittites and Mycenaeans? The historical Exodus may not have occurred exactly when the bible claims, but Egyptian chronology is reasonably certain?
 
Jun 2017
80
Thailand
That story of Mycenaean piracy in Egypt is told twice by Homer,not in the Iliad but in Odyssey.

Agammenon first told Telemachus that he visited Egypt and was defeated by the Egyptian king,later a disguised Odysseus used a similar story.

It'a shame we lost all the other works of the epic cycle,specially Cypria (the first ten years of the war) and Aethiopis (the coming of Memnon and the death of Achilles).

In Roman times Quintus Smyrnaeus retold the events of the later events of the war in hls epic, Posthomerica.

Memnon is a interesting case.Despite his importance in legends the greeks did not agree were was mythological Aethiopia.
Homer put then both in the western and eastern sides of the world,Herodotus in Susa,Ctesias in Assyria,Helenistic writers in Africa and so on.

It's like the use of the therms "Meluha" and "Magan" during the Assyrian Empire.Originally they were related to the India and Oman,but with time became associated to Egypt and Nubia.

Memnon hypothetically could be a sea people (if he came from the western islands,like Sardina),and even a Hittite (in Ctesias story Troy is a vassal from Assyria,but historically Wilusa/Ilion was a Hittite vassal).


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the Greeks could have been the Ekwesh = Achaeans ?
 

Matthew Amt

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
3,011
MD, USA
then what happened to the Hittites and Mycenaeans?
They stayed there. The Mycenaean Greeks simply developed into the Geometric/Archaic Greeks, the continuity is all too visible. YES, there were changes in society and government over time, but not necessarily any collapse or revolution. Of course the standard explanation for the Hittites is that they disappeared for 300 years--gone, collapsed, depopulated, etc.--then suddenly the "Neo-Hittite Empire" popped into existence in pretty much the same place, with the same technology, artwork, etc. How it could be more obvious than to pull those imaginary 300 years out and have a cogent and logical chronological progression is beyond me...

The historical Exodus may not have occurred exactly when the bible claims, but Egyptian chronology is reasonably certain?
The Egyptian chronology is the heart of the problem, since ALL absolute dates west of India derive from it. Overlap a few dynasties that clearly overlapped, and you can drop those extra centuries out with little fuss. Of course, part of the objection to this is that the Bible WILL make more chronological sense, and of course many academics despise any possibility of that. The Exodus will fall into place wherever it should, but I don't think it is evidence for any large-scale collapse or cataclysm. There have been groups of people moving around all through human history, and a few of them have been lucky enough to leave some written account behind of their migrations. I don't see this as a problem.

Matthew
 
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Mar 2014
27
Brazil
Do you mean Menelaus told Telemachus?

IIrc, Agamemnon is not said to have met Telemachus.
Yes,it was Menelaus.Sorry.
Agamemnon appeared in Odyssey,but just as shade in Hades.

About this theory of "no dark age" I think it brings other set of problems .

If we cut 100-200 years from the equation than not only the Dorian migrations happened at the same time as the end of the patial system,but also the Aramaeans movement should be pushed back too.

Both are historical migrations.

Current historiography tell us that the Dorians (greeks,but with a different diallect than Mycenaeans) came after the "collapse".

If the theory is true than when Greek colonization of Cyprus and the cost of Anatolia started?
Right after the end of the palatial system in Greece or later,during the formation of the polis (when monarchy was abolished in some places)?


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Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
5,035
Australia
What Dorian migration? It is all part of the same "Collapse and Dark Age" nonsense. Historians have been looking for nearly two hundred years for evidence to support this imaginary invasion and have found nothing.
 
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Todd Feinman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2013
6,609
Planet Nine, Oregon
How would you explain the end of Linear B and the gap before the introduction of the alphabet, when things like the Iliad were passed on orally? How to explain the fiery destruction of many citadels and Mycenae too? The decline in art.. from Palatial to Proto-Geometric, etc. It seems like those things woould take time, and have good reasons. Are you guys suggesting that it was just another destruction layer like many, and the decline happened gradually for political reasons etc.?
 
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Matthew Amt

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
3,011
MD, USA
How would you explain the end of Linear B and the gap before the introduction of the alphabet, when things like the Iliad were passed on orally? How to explain the fiery destruction of many citadels and Mycenae too? The decline in art.. from Palatial to Proto-Geometric, etc. It seems like those things woould take time, and have good reasons. Are you guys suggesting that it was just another destruction layer like many, and the decline happened gradually for political reasons etc.?
That all could have happened as easily in 900 as in 1200. We don't know that all those palaces burned simultaneously, for starters. And some of them were not burnt.

There are chronological problems with the Greek alphabet, too--they seem to have adopted one which was used (ta-daaa!) 300 years before by someone else. But I don't see the presence of a writing system as being mutually exclusive of oral story-telling, though that's not my area of study.

What decline in art? There was good and bad art in the Mycenaean era, and afterwards. Sure, the Geometric stuff is stylistically different from, say, the Pylos wall frescoes, but again, so what? Doesn't make them centuries different in date. Some high-end things like ivory carving and cast bronze tripods exist before and after the "Dark Ages", with no change, but no apparently connection. The ideas people have cooked up to explain how such arts could be preserved in "perishable materials" are just wacked-out and lunatic.

Matthew
 
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