Why are Hong Kongers all of a suddenly protesting for democracy when they were never a democracy?

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,553
"Look at all those people streaming over the Berlin Wall! Kind of puts the lie to all those people claiming it was repressive for all those years!"
False equivocation: HKongers managed to vote for parties that Beijing don't like, which is a legal process in Hong Kong, it shows what HK can do legally in HK. People streaming over the Berlin Wall is an illegal process, it shows they would risk the wrath of the law to move to a better place. HKongers and mainlanders move to each other's cities legally all the time, which is not the scenario with the Berlin Wall. And by the way, Hkongers emigration is increasing and mainland immigration to HK decreased for the past year. Guess why that is?

My responses go dead when I get a hysterical rant about how I'm repressing people merely by disagreeing with them, all in barely intelligible prose.
That is incorrect and you know it. For example, in the following thread:

You told me to "Join Falun Gong for a month and then get back to me. Hopefully you'll still have all your organs."

I gave you the following response, in which you gave no reply. Where did I make the claim that you're "repressing people merely by disagreeing"? Nowhere, you came back to the thread with unrelated cheap shots instead.
Here was my reply:
The organ harvesting story is just another one of those misconceptions blown out of proportion that's so prevalent, things like this makes me wonder how 'free' our own information really is. There's not much difference between building a wall between you and the truth, and having a desert between you and the truth. You're 'free' to travel across the desert for the truth, but the clear majority will stay in their comfort zone. So the end result is the same. If you judge other ideology by how they work in actuality rather than how they work ideally on paper, than you should judge your own ideology in the same way.

In other words, the majority will only learn about Falun Gong organ harvesting but read nothing about the following:

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/crs/RL33437.pdf

.........................
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The organ harvesting story surfaced stemming from accusations that Sujiatun harvested FLG prisoners. However, this was disproven by Harry Wu whose team secretely investigated Sujiatun and found nothing of the sort, it’s just a normal hospital.

EastSouthWestNorth: Wu Hongda's Statement on the Sujiatun Concentration Camp

Wu Hongda's Statement on the Sujiatun Concentration Camp

“I arranged for people inside China to visit the Sujiatun scene. From March 12, the investigators canvassed the entire Sujiatun area. On March 17, the investigators visited two military barracks in Sujiatun. On March 27, the investigators secretly visited the Chinese Medical Blood Clotting Treatment Center in Sujiatun. On March 29, the investigators went to the Kongjiashan prison near Sujiatun. None of the aforementioned investigations revealed any trace of the concentration camp. The investigators provided me with photographs and written reports on their investigation and results on March 15, 17, 27, 29, 30 and April 4.”
And before you doubt the accuracy of Harry Wu’s investigation, let me say that Harry Wu was imprisoned by the PRC before, Harry continued being an outspoken critic of the PRC, and he was on friendly terms with the FLG. Once he released the report that the organ harvesting stories are filled with BS, the FLG released smear articles on Harry Wu until Harry Wu used his FLG connections to put a stop to it.
The organ harvesting story resurfaced more recently from London, in which mainstream media claimed that an “independent” tribunal claimed that China was still engaged in massive harvesting of FLG organs. Let’s see how ‘independent’ they are. The tribunal was set up by the “International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse”.
The executive director is Susie Hughes, who works for the Epoch Times, a FLG mouthpiece: Management | The International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China
Second person is Margo MacVicar, who works for the Epoch Times, a FLG mouthpiece: Margo Macvicar - The Epoch Times
Third person is Rebecca (Becky) James, who already had a prior history of pushing the organ harvesting narrative and is an organizer for the FLG in UK: The Third Round Table Briefing on Organ Harvesting in China - The APPG for International Freedom of Religion or Belief
Fourth person is Andy Moody, who is another FLG member: https://www.tasteoflifemag.com/a-man-and-his-mirror/
Fifth person is Victoria Ledwidge, a prominent FLG member: New York: Falun Dafa Practitioners from Around the World Participate in Character Formation and Share Their Joy
Sixth person is David Tompkins, who works for the Epoch Times, a FLG mouthpiece: David Tompkins - The Epoch Times

It's called "Atrocity Propaganda". It's been used to make ridiculous news such as the idea that China censored Winnie the Pooh, obviously false. Same for the "1 million Uighur imprisoned" misconception, in which it was stated with zero sources. It's only after the statement was claimed that sources surfaced, but these sources are once again US government fronts, and sourcing that quotes from US government fronts: No, the UN Did Not Report China Has ‘Massive Internment Camps’ for Uighur Muslims - Global Research
Now the number has blown up to 3 million Uighurs imprisoned (there's only a total of 11 million). Which might be believable if you have no contact and never lived there. But not believable if you live there and go "I'm not seeing 30% of my Uighur friends disappearing").
 
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HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,553
Also, Abraham95, in this very thread, I responded to you with the following:
One of their [protestor's] main official causes is to make the government wipe clean the charges against all protesters, ergo the ugly incidents that protesters get involved in (throwing bombs, beating people half to death) have very much to do with whether their cause is just.
Ironically, another of their official demands is to make police actions go through an independent jury to determine their guilt. But the violence of the protesters somehow means a get-out-of-jail-free card, rather than facing an independent jury.
Also by saying that merely "some" people are unhappy with the protests, I assume you're unaware of the 'anti-protest' protests going on in HK (I haven't missed the irony). Which the news here also tend to gloss over.

Probably helped by that when westerners in HK openly disagree, they don't get lasers pointed at their eyeballs, or harassed, or beat up, or have the names/addresses of their family posted in public. At least not that I have seen. I can't support this double-standard treatment especially when it's against their own people.


In which case you did not reply. Where in the above did I say anything about you "repressing people merely by disagreeing?" Nowhere, again that's just something you claim. This is not mentioning the cheap shots in which you only post things like "When did historum become an arm of the CCP?" No real counterarguments, no sourcing, no concrete examples, just empty cheap-shots which contributes nothing. As for the people you claim to go on "hysterical rants", where did they say "When did historum become an arm of the CIA"? Nowhere?
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
most westerners who support in falungong are just hypocrisy and ignorant.

most of them never actually read the original book of falungong, 转法轮

it is like someone talking about meaning of Trinity without reading the bible and the Council of Nicaea

well, of course, that analogy is for the convenience of westerners to understand. the falungong got nothing value to be called a religion, and 转法轮 is not even deserved to be called a proper book, let along a religious book
 
Aug 2011
196
The Castle Anthrax
Ok then please, enlighten us as to who the Sky Teacher is. Let's find out what you actually know about it.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,889
Falun Gong repeats certain patterns of how opposition to a regime has historically formed in China. The Chinese government certainly knows the history in that regard. The clamp-down on it was predictable given that. Whether anyone outside China supports it or not, it is an opposition movement made in China, by Chinese. Good or bad, it still begs the question how should opposition to the Chinese government be channelled and expressed – if at all?
 
Nov 2019
14
Mexico
I expected the election results to calm down the protests a little bit, but was wrong. Regardless of how much the US is actually involved in the protests (obviously helps them for their trade war); i speculate they will try to encourage this to continue for the next few years, and it seems some elements are really hoping for a catastrophe like Chai Ling did in 1989 before fleeing China:

"All along I've kept it to myself, because being Chinese I felt I shouldn't bad-mouth the Chinese. But I can't help thinking sometimes – and I might as well say it – you, the Chinese, you are not worth my struggle! You are not worth my sacrifice!
What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students?"

If a crackdown happens, then it would be just in time for a boycott of the 2022 Beijing Olympics which would be a major diplomatic victory for the US and the cold war would escalate.
 
Jul 2018
540
Hong Kong
The current Hong Kong riots are just like the Hong Kong version of Dreyfus Affair and Fascist violence in AD 1930s.
It doesn't matter what truth and justice are, but "factional strife" driven by ideologies, ambition and madness.

The idea of libertianism and democratism, in fact, are the "double-edged sword" just as the idea of dictatorship and Fascism.
People always adore the good but neglect the bad side of these ideologies.

If democracy is really godly awesome as some people glorified, why in so few occasions the ancient-Medieval-Early Modern regimes adopted the "extensive democratic institutions" ? From as early as the Age of Classical Greece, we had traced the root of democracy. Does that mean the modern people possess greater maturity in ethics, sense of honour and political institution ? If the answer is yes, it's just like you're saying the Western nations' governments nowadays possess better ethics, sense of honour and political institution than the Communist China. Examine carefully, you'll find that that there're no much difference for humanity between the people and the government of different political systems.

I'm never a supporter of the Chinese Communist regime, but a supporter of moderated socialism, republicanism and reformism deeply influenced by Leon Blum — yet through my extensive study of politics, I realize that most of the people have too little understanding about the essence of democracy and liberty and have too much fantasy about them.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
till today, the ONLY eye-attractive feature of falungong is the so called "oppression" and "organ harvest"

what makes it actually a religion?

what is the core spirit of it as a "religion"?
does it have a debate about good and evil?
does it have a discussion about after life?
what is its interpretation of The Origin?
what is its interpretation of The End?

apparently, when western people talking about falungong as a religion, they "pardoned" it from what is essential of a religion.

falungong is a stupid cult, i don't care about being called biased or something else.
the western people rarely realize a fact, falungong is NOT welcomed among mainland people. they assume it to be by government oppression, but fail to think even a microsecond about a possibility it is not the thing they thought is.

the western people does not have family members or neighbors being put into death conditions due to its cult doctrines, they do not have their money being stolen due to "a demand" of "the master".
not everything has been existed is rightful to exist further according to the human conscience. Aum Doomsday has been put into end, so will falungong.
the west does not have a right to claim the rightness of existence of falungong.

yet, they speak loudly.

organ harvest is a stupid but effective (in west) propaganda. there is a chinese saying a person cannot just vanish, if he dies his corpse exists, if he lives, he could be found in person, even if he was burnt out after funeral , you knew about his death. there are dozens of versions about the number of "harvested" organs, but i have seen in zero times about a living person reported with medical evidences about removal of previously healthy organs, or i have seen in zero times about dead prisoner evidenced by x-ray or other medical methods about missing organs. there is only "speculations" "from someone not willing to reveal himself" "i saw ads of organ transplant" "i heard of" "i saw people were badly treated, and i think harvest is going on" "the person died in prison, so his organs must be harvested" “ccp leader lives a long life”.................

(the most extreme stupid claiming is about the life of ccp leaders, don't people actually know transplant of vital organs only extends the life of a human for averagely ten years or even less with presumption of continuing medical treatment? using replaced organs won't make anyone younger or have an extended life, let along the chance of successful matching is very low. no person would seek a transplant of organ unless it is fatally necessary)
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
those who claim the riot is justified ignored basic facts, hk people have been given general freedom to debate the concerned ordinance, hk people are free to protest, hk people are free to elect.

however, protest is not a cover-up of severe violence.

the recent months have been a total mess with all kinds of violence.

the following shows an injury of a hk policeman. the injury is just several micro-meters away from his arterie. as you should have known, it costs usually around several hundreds of seconds till death if the arterie is cut off.

the micro-meter distance is not from the mercy of the riot criminal, just out of full luck.

this is only one among different injuries of hk police.

as previously shown in the thread, the injuries happened to civilians, to an even larger extent.

now the injured policemen usually have to wear masks in front of medias, because they and their families have been constantly threatened by unknown sources, about their life.

and for sure, we knew few or none of the medias of west actually have made a direct dialogue with those injured police.


 
May 2017
115
Hong Kong
I expected the election results to calm down the protests a little bit, but was wrong. Regardless of how much the US is actually involved in the protests (obviously helps them for their trade war); i speculate they will try to encourage this to continue for the next few years, and it seems some elements are really hoping for a catastrophe like Chai Ling did in 1989 before fleeing China:

"All along I've kept it to myself, because being Chinese I felt I shouldn't bad-mouth the Chinese. But I can't help thinking sometimes – and I might as well say it – you, the Chinese, you are not worth my struggle! You are not worth my sacrifice!
What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students?"

If a crackdown happens, then it would be just in time for a boycott of the 2022 Beijing Olympics which would be a major diplomatic victory for the US and the cold war would escalate.
That is what the opposition force wants to achieve a bloodshed event to happen in Hong Kong like the June 4 incidence in Beijing in the past. The opposition force then would expect a similar total ban of China in trade and other aspects in her relationship to other countries in the world.
Hong Kong was the first piece of Chinese mainland to be colonized by the west by the force of gunboats whilst Macau was a land negotiated in peace for the Portugese to stay.
It looks like riots in Hong Kong is the attempt by the west to colonize Hong Kong once again in the 21st century. That the suggestion by the opposition force about Hong Kong people can judge Hong Kong suspects committed crimes overseas only paves the way of the recovery of extraterritorial rights exercised by the foreign western powers in China.

"Recovery of Hong Kong ( back to the colonialism? ), Revolution of the Time (to topple the existing HK govt. ?}" is the slogan of the rioters along the streets of Hong Kong.

I cannot blame solely it is the west to contribute to the riots in HK, the rioters here are immature young generations like spoiled child whom I have referred to as an alien generation a few years ago in this forum and I have predicted that Hong Kong would be doomed.
I just feel sorry for HK.

Remember the Solomon's wisdom in determining a child being the true son of either two women who claimed to be his true mother. The true mother would not harm her son to the extent of giving away her son to another woman for him to live. People who now ruining HK do not possess the true affections towards HK.
 
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