Why are Hong Kongers all of a suddenly protesting for democracy when they were never a democracy?

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,932
Obviously the supporters of the PRC againts KH will never accept:
1) That Hongkong has real grievances.
2) That these are legitimate.
3) That they are the cause of the protests.
4) That these protests are spontaneous and generated and maintained by HK:ers themselves.
5) That the protesters also have majority support in HK itself.

Since all of the above are actually true, China has a massive Hongkong shaped headache.

Don't say: "Reforms are necessary." Much less: "The CCP has overstepped the mark of legitimacy in striking a balance between justice and power."

Do say: "It's a foreign conspiracy against China!"

Enjoy!
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
hk is firstly a chinese affair. chinese certainly has an unique view on concerning the events happening in ourselves.
the speech, watching chinese events for a fun against ccp, is hypocrisy and nonsense.
the attempt to name chinese posters as supporters of PRC, is nonsense, as if the chinese citizens are not rightful to support our own country

all of the chinese posters in this forum reveal the problems of hk, from the price of house to educations
hk is not a perfect place.
claiming chinese did not notice the problem of hk is a lie

perhaps the thread lasted too long. but if one searches carefully, one finds previously, it is claimed by lairs that the protest is about the ordinance.
the protest, funded by foreign powers via organizations such as NED, did not stop even when the ordinance is withdrawn
then claims have been shifted here and there, to find new cover-ups for the violence

protest is not necessarily be linked with violence.
however, currently the violence spreading over hk is apparently a result of foreign involvement.
indeed, the foreign powers intend to create headache against china. it has been previously revealed in older pages that US personnel claimed the riot is benefit to US as the trade war is going on.

indeed, someone wants us chinese to "enjoy" the riot. the term "democracy" is nothing but an excuse for the terrorism behaviors happening in hk.

so far the liars about hk issues have ignored the violence again and again. they have shown zero evidence about what is the exact point mainland harmed hk.
keeping talking about legitimacy, the liars show no knowledge and zero discussion on the law of china.

that exactly forms a trolling

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there is a strange feature of the west, i would slightly touch the problem by asking a question:
in a full democratic society, whose government represents the people, who should be responsible for the non-rightful wars committed by their nation?
 
Jul 2019
71
hongkong
That is what the opposition force wants to achieve a bloodshed event to happen in Hong Kong like the June 4 incidence in Beijing in the past. The opposition force then would expect a similar total ban of China in trade and other aspects in her relationship to other countries in the world.
Hong Kong was the first piece of Chinese mainland to be colonized by the west by the force of gunboats whilst Macau was a land negotiated in peace for the Portugese to stay.
It looks like riots in Hong Kong is the attempt by the west to colonize Hong Kong once again in the 21st century. That the suggestion by the opposition force about Hong Kong people can judge Hong Kong suspects committed crimes overseas only paves the way of the recovery of extraterritorial rights exercised by the foreign western powers in China.

"Recovery of Hong Kong ( back to the colonialism? ), Revolution of the Time (to topple the existing HK govt. ?}" is the slogan of the rioters along the streets of Hong Kong.

I cannot blame solely it is the west to contribute to the riots in HK, the rioters here are immature young generations like spoiled child whom I have referred to as an alien generation a few years ago in this forum and I have predicted that Hong Kong would be doomed.
I just feel sorry for HK.

Remember the Solomon's wisdom in determining a child being the true son of either two women who claimed to be his true mother. The true mother would not harm her son to the extent of giving away her son to another woman for him to live. People who now ruining HK do not possess the true affections towards HK.
we same feeling.

Many people are saying beautiful slogans . but don't care about Hong Kong.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,932
I someone from outside China actually cares about Hongkong, China will officially scream its head off about "foreign interference". If they don't, they're heartless bastards. Gets them coming and going.

It is in fact a common "suppression technique" known as the "double bind" – damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What is at stake, which I do care about, are the principles of the free and open society, civil rights and the free formation of opinion, rule of law, and the principles of accountable representative government. These are all at stake in Hongkong, whether some of the parties involved care about them or not, or even understands them.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
if one cannot vow a condemn against violence in hk, the person is selling cheap slogans hypocritically with lies.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,223
Lisbon, Portugal
first, i must say i am tied of this pattern of request of sources, when one is supposed to do the job due to the initialization of criticism.

you are supposed to tell us it is in the constitution of PRC? or basic law? or any regulation of people's congress? that forbidden general elections in hk, because you made the criticism, you should have been feeding yourself with enough knowledge before discussion.

anyway, this is for your convenience, no promise made that the same convenience will be provided in future:

1. the 45th term of basic law of hk determined general election should prevail, in a step by step progress

2. 全国人大常委会关于香港行政长官普选问题和2016年立法会产生办法的决定_要闻_新闻_中国政府网
the national people's congress suggest hk government and legislative council to carry out general elections of chief of hk starting from 2017

THIS IS NOT AN OPENING OF ALLOWING general election, BUT A REMIND of the basic law.
according to the "one nation, two systems", hk government and legislative council have the DUTY to propose the details about general elections.
THEY FAIL EVEN TODAY, the main problem comes from the oppositional fractions voted down ALL PLANS in legislative council
Thank you for the links.
And Let me tell you this:
It's not my problem if you feel tired or not for sending the same link over and over again to other historumites, It's the first time I asked you this, therefore you should be prepared that other people will ask the same question to you because this an open forum and multiple people will debate with you, Be cool-headed, please.

I know it sucks to repeat yourself over and over again - I've been in the same situation before many times - but not anyone is as knowledgeable of a certain issue such as you and you should expect that people even with the most basic or no knowledge about the subject being discussed will participate in the conversation.

this is non-sense.

all potential electors, as similar as in any other nations, are also adults.

they should propose the plan according to the constitution and basic law, negotiate it, and then carry out.

no general election can come out from thin air.

they are not spoiled children crying and waiting for other people to design a framework of general election.

the allowance of proposal of their own plan about carrying out general elections is of the core of the democracy spirit.

the failure of making proposals and failure of negotiation spirit is the core problem of the so called protesters.



i am not going to further condemn US government agencies, but will the guys leading the protest telling you?
anyway, this is irrelevant to what you have quoted from my words.
That's untrue, the electors only have the power to elect a portion of the legislative elected officials in Hong Kong, that clearly proves that the legal democratic approach won't work well in Hong Kong, since from the system itself all votes are not equal.

this is further non-sense
holocaust, or more easily understood, massacres against jewish people, resulted in tiny few survivors to provide any first hand source.
surely you got mainly second hand ones.

that is irrelevant to any degree to the hk case.
plz stop bring more cheap analogy of no importance.
Ok...you totally didn't get my point and you apparently no nothing about the Holocaust...therefore you totally missed the memo...

you are correct, hk is not specially dangerous for *YOU*
because, it has been observed the black shirt violence criminals usually let foreign face go.

that is not the same to chinese, no matter hk citizen or mainland citizen.

that is not going to make you actually safer in hk though, foreigners also actually got chances been blocked in road or airports, if you read news, and what will the foreigners do when chinese are not actually safe.
You are making assumptions about me now, you don't know how I look like, you don't know my ethnic background and you don't know if I have a "foreign face".
What I'm saying is that I live in far dangerous places before in my life, even though I'm in my early 30s I've lived in some countries that could be described as highly dangerous and war-zones. I know how to survive in those environments and the supposed danger in Hong Kong at this time doesn't concern me at all.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
Thank you for the links.
And Let me tell you this:
It's not my problem if you feel tired or not for sending the same link over and over again to other historumites, It's the first time I asked you this, therefore you should be prepared that other people will ask the same question to you because this an open forum and multiple people will debate with you, Be cool-headed, please.
you are supposed to know what you are criticize for, you should present the source for your criticism.

this is the simple rule, you should not have turn the job upon me.

you should not pretend it is about who is not cool-head

perhaps, it is not even clear to yourself. just like many others in this forum, you have a prejudgment that a chinese is not rightful to support PRC, so it should *always* be the chinese poster to provide sources for debate.

however, that is not the fact, if one uses the actual academic standards, who raised the criticism, who is responsible for finding sources.

you claim PRC did not actually provide the general election, which a severe criticism since the general election is known to be part of the basic laws. then you are supposed to give the sources for your claim.

like many, you turned for me to provide sources, is it possible you think it is always the "common sense" ”PRC does not provide rights to its citizens”?

That's untrue, the electors only have the power to elect a portion of the legislative elected officials in Hong Kong, that clearly proves that the legal democratic approach won't work well in Hong Kong, since from the system itself all votes are not equal.
" the electors only have the power to elect a portion of the legislative elected officials"

this is not even a proper sentence.

officials are not elected, just like Secretary of State of US is not elected. the chief of hk is elected. officials are just employees of the hk government.


Ok...you totally didn't get my point and you apparently no nothing about the Holocaust...therefore you totally missed the memo...
you should not make terrible analogy that does not fit the context.

this thread is about hk. not how secondary sources are useful in Holocaust.

any human proposed rule of nature of human society only works under specific context, for example, the newtons law only works under classic mechanics

your claim that secondary is more evident than first hand, and your cheap analogy of Holocaust has its special context.

the background of lack of survivor is not applicable in hk

it does not matter whether i got or miss your memo, if you fail to establish a logics, your analogy is not useful

You are making assumptions about me now, you don't know how I look like, you don't know my ethnic background and you don't know if I have a "foreign face".
What I'm saying is that I live in far dangerous places before in my life, even though I'm in my early 30s I've lived in some countries that could be described as highly dangerous and war-zones. I know how to survive in those environments and the supposed danger in Hong Kong at this time doesn't concern me at all.
i am not making assumptions.

you are not chinese, yourself have claimed many times in the forum you are a foreign person lived (lives) in china and other countries.
i just have a good memory about who said what.

i don't have to make the assumptions.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2017
421
Latin America
Obviously the supporters of the PRC againts KH will never accept:
1) That Hongkong has real grievances.
2) That these are legitimate.
3) That they are the cause of the protests.
4) That these protests are spontaneous and generated and maintained by HK:ers themselves.
5) That the protesters also have majority support in HK itself.

Since all of the above are actually true, China has a massive Hongkong shaped headache.

Don't say: "Reforms are necessary." Much less: "The CCP has overstepped the mark of legitimacy in striking a balance between justice and power."

Do say: "It's a foreign conspiracy against China!"

Enjoy!
Hong Kong has no "real grievances". Real grievances are malnutrition and starvation, war and criminal violence. Hong Kong has one of the lowest rates of criminal violence, is not suffering from any war and has no starvation and malnutrition. Its poverty rate is definitely marginal. It doesn't even have "real grievances" compared to other so-called developed countries. It doesn't have the massive suicide rates that South Korea and Japan have, the massive unemployment or underemployment rates that Spain has which are among the main causes in the recent upsurge in Catalonian nationalism. It lacks the ridiculous imprisonment rates that exist in the US. Censorship is about the only thing they suffer, but given how influenced by Western culture they are (nowhere else in China do people enjoy the MCU and Game of Thrones as much as in Hong Kong, and at this point, there seem to be more Christians and more Hong Kongers with Western first names than there are Buddhists and Daoists and Hong Kongers with Chinese first names), even this censorship is almost non-existent.

The current round of protests didn't even start with any kind of repression. It started because a Hong Konger murdered his pregnant girlfriend and the Chinese authorities decided to try him in the mainland.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,627
China
Hong Kong has no "real grievances". Real grievances are malnutrition and starvation, war and criminal violence. Hong Kong has one of the lowest rates of criminal violence, is not suffering from any war and has no starvation and malnutrition. Its poverty rate is definitely marginal. It doesn't even have "real grievances" compared to other so-called developed countries. It doesn't have the massive suicide rates that South Korea and Japan have, the massive unemployment or underemployment rates that Spain has which are among the main causes in the recent upsurge in Catalonian nationalism. It lacks the ridiculous imprisonment rates that exist in the US. Censorship is about the only thing they suffer, but given how influenced by Western culture they are (nowhere else in China do people enjoy the MCU and Game of Thrones as much as in Hong Kong, and at this point, there seem to be more Christians and more Hong Kongers with Western first names than there are Buddhists and Daoists and Hong Kongers with Chinese first names), even this censorship is almost non-existent.

The current round of protests didn't even start with any kind of repression. It started because a Hong Konger murdered his pregnant girlfriend and the Chinese authorities decided to try him in the mainland.
there is no chinese authorities decided to try the criminal in mainland

the very consensus among mainland, hk and taiwan is that this severe crime should be discussed in court following a territorial principle.

the murdering happened in taiwan island, so the criminal should be sent to taiwan to receive punishment.

however, there is no mechanism to make this transport to happen.

many of the riot starters claimed the criminal should be retained in hk, that in fact means they do not intend to seek a justice, since hk does not have any material to prepare a court debate.
 

mariusj

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,037
Los Angeles
Obviously the supporters of the PRC againts KH will never accept:
1) That Hongkong has real grievances.
2) That these are legitimate.
3) That they are the cause of the protests.
4) That these protests are spontaneous and generated and maintained by HK:ers themselves.
5) That the protesters also have majority support in HK itself.

Since all of the above are actually true, China has a massive Hongkong shaped headache.

Don't say: "Reforms are necessary." Much less: "The CCP has overstepped the mark of legitimacy in striking a balance between justice and power."

Do say: "It's a foreign conspiracy against China!"

Enjoy!
How do you know that these are spontaneous and generated and maintained by Hkers themselves?

You stated that as a fact.

It doesn't mean I reject your other points, but I find you jumping to conclusion on this.