Why did ancient egypt leave so little impact on the west?

Nov 2016
41
Australia
#51
..But once again I feel (with respect) you are clutching at straws. Are you suggesting that the origin of the monotheistic faiths was actually Egypt?
Once again- not asking if (pre-ptolomeic/ Greek) Egypt did/didn't achieve impressive things.... but whether these things influenced 'the west'?
Interesting that the Phoenicians-> Carthaginians (rather than the Egyptians) developed the alphabet, took over Mediterranean sea trade/ ship technology/ agricultural technology etc.... colonised Spain, traded with Britain...... much more of an influence than Egypt I would suggest.
 
Nov 2016
41
Australia
#52
..But once again I feel (with respect) you are clutching at straws. Are you suggesting that the origin of the monotheistic faiths was actually Egypt?
Once again- not asking if (pre-ptolomeic/ Greek) Egypt did/didn't achieve impressive things.... but whether these things influenced 'the west'?
Interesting that the Phoenicians-> Carthaginians (rather than the Egyptians) developed the alphabet, took over Mediterranean sea trade/ ship technology/ agricultural technology etc.... colonised Spain, traded with Britain...... much more of an influence than Egypt I would suggest.
 
Dec 2015
219
NYC
#53
First of all, the West (defined as European civilization) has it's origins in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. However, Greece and Rome were never pristine/original civilizations. They are younger and recent compared to China India Egypt and Near East, and Greece only developed civilization as a result of being closed to the Eastern Mediterranean (a hotbed of advanced cultures). Egypt (and the Near East as well) may not have influenced classical Greece, but heavily influenced Archaic Greece (which in turn paved way for Classical Greece), not directly, but through trade and some Greek philosophers coming to these lands to learn. The Greek alphabet comes from the Phoenician alphabet, but the Phoenician alphabet in turn was developed out of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Early Greek architecture took from Egyptian architecture which was the first to built temples and columns (Minoan architecture also was influenced by Egyptians). Early Greek art and sculpture heavily adopted Egyptian and Levantine techniques, Greek literature was heavily influenced by early Near Eastern works (Gilgamesh), Greek mythology borrows a lot from Near Eastern motifs and beliefs, Greek mathematics comes from early Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics (Geometry comes from Egyptian Trigonometry and Arithmetic from early Sumerian and Babylonian number systems), Greek science/Physics/natural philosophy evolved out of early Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy, Greek law was probably influenced by the early Mesopotamian city-states and Greek philosophy was probably heavily influenced by early Near Eastern and Egyptian ways of thinking (this one is debatable, but I believe that without early Egyptian and Near Easter ways of thinking of the world, the Greeks would have nothing to question or doubt).

And before anyone accuses me of saying something like "Greeks just copied or stolen from other civilizations" or "Greece is just an offshoot of Mesopotamia or Egypt" or "Greeks are Middle Eastern" (lol). No. Greeks obviously had their own ideas and eventually surpassed their oriental predecessors and they are obviously genetically and culturally different from the Egyptians and Near Easterners. Okay, the Western Europeans (who basically built modern day civilization) got their civilization and knowledge from the Ancient Greeks, yet Western Europeans has their own ideas and innovations that were different from the Greeks, but yet they still learned from the Greeks. Doesn't matter whether or not Greeks had different ideas and innovations from their Egyptian and Near Eastern predecessors. They essentially laid the foundation for Greeks to learn from and innovate, the same way Greeks laid the foundation for European civilization to learn from and innovate.
 
Dec 2015
219
NYC
#54
I noticed that some people are saying that Ancient Greeks were more influenced by Phoenicians and Babylonians rather than Ancient Egyptians. You people are totally downplaying the influence Egypt had on early Greece. Of course Egyptians weren't the only ones who influenced the Greeks, but you still can't deny the Egyptian influence. My guess that it's the widespread Afrocentrism belief that "Ancient Egyptians were related to SSA people, therefore Europeans stole Egyptian/African culture, and Europeans can't believe that SSA people, a people thought of as primitive, were able to built a civilization unparalleled from other civilizations at that time", that people try to downplay or even deny the influence of Ancient Egyptians.

This narrative really needs to go in the garbage where it belongs. Besides, the ones who came with this whole belief are West Africans in the new world trying to boost their inferiority complex that was imposed on them by Europeans, who kept saying that Africans are inferior, primitive and can't build civilization. Anyone with a brain knows this isn't true. Besides, one has to look at history and look at the things Africans in the new world created. After all, most popular music genres in America and Latin America came from the blood sweat and tears of New World Africans.
 
Nov 2016
41
Australia
#55
I don't think this discussion is in any way related to 'race'.. and certainly the fact that jazz/blues/rock/funk/reggae/rap are all african-american phenomenon seems irrelevant ?

Perhaps the 'insularity' of Egypt vs Carthage explains differences in cultural/linguistic exports. I believe the Egyptians outsourced to Carthaginian Shipping/Logistics for trade. Their river boats good for the Nile were no match for the Carthaginian fleet. Why did Egypt- situated as it is.. not develop trading routes like this? Perhaps they didn't need to? Perhaps an ancient equivalent of 'Resource Curse'. .. too much wheat! Nile fertility too great! Just speculating.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,606
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#56
The main reason is historical: Egypt was no more an independent civilization by a long time when the Greek - Roman civilization [which developed into the "Roman Civitas"] created the bases of the Western civilization. KmT was already a Hellenic country [where, btw, they wrote the Old Testament, the Tanakh, in Greek, not in Hebrew or in Hieratic ... in Greek ...].

About Phoenicians, it's thanks to the Greek bridge that their alphabet has survived, not exactly thanks to the Phoenician civilization itself. And a part the alphabet, even if Phoenicians have settled in some regions of Italy for centuries, here there is nothing Phoenician today [if not archaeological sites and names of places].

On the other hand, if Egypt would have remained independent with its own identity the Middle East would have been well different and the Greek - Roman civilization would have been less dominating [or probably different ... it would have been an "Egyptian - Greek - Roman" civilization ... Romans adopted and adapted ...].
 
Dec 2015
219
NYC
#57
I don't think this discussion is in any way related to 'race'.. and certainly the fact that jazz/blues/rock/funk/reggae/rap are all african-american phenomenon seems irrelevant ?
I brought that up because some people deny or downplay Egypt's influence on early Greeks as a result of afrocentric fantasies of sub-saharan people being the founders of Ancient Egypt and that Greeks (who were European) stole their ideas and that without Africans, Europeans would have no civilization. The whole idea of Ancient Egyptians being black comes from West Africans living in the new world who believe that their ancestors were all kings and had glorious inventions that were later stolen by whites. It's downright inferiority complex, trying to steal the achievements of people you have nothing in common with (which I don't blame since African Americans have been constantly indoctrinated by racist propaganda that they are an "inferior, primitive and uncivilized people incapable of producing civilization" by white Europeans). I bought up the whole popular music thing just to show that African Americans have their own achievements and they shouldn't listen to such garbage.
 
Dec 2015
219
NYC
#58
The main reason is historical: Egypt was no more an independent civilization by a long time when the Greek - Roman civilization [which developed into the "Roman Civitas"] created the bases of the Western civilization. KmT was already a Hellenic country [where, btw, they wrote the Old Testament, the Tanakh, in Greek, not in Hebrew or in Hieratic ... in Greek ...].
Still doesn't change the fact that Egyptians (along with the early Near Eastern societies) laid the blueprints for Greeks to learn from and innovate. They play a role in the development in Western civilization, just not as much obviously as the Greco-Romans. And the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. It was only translated into Greek. New Testament however was written in Greek.

About Phoenicians, it's thanks to the Greek bridge that their alphabet has survived, not exactly thanks to the Phoenician civilization itself. And a part the alphabet, even if Phoenicians have settled in some regions of Italy for centuries, here there is nothing Phoenician today [if not archaeological sites and names of places].
Greeks got their alphabet from Phoenicians, which in turn developed from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Phoenicians only settled in Western Sicily, Malta, Southern Corsica, Southern Spain, parts of Cyprus and Northwest Africa. There are some Phoenician ruins around those places, such as Cadiz, in of course modern day Lebanon, Eastern Cyprus and the biggest one is Carthage.

On the other hand, if Egypt would have remained independent with its own identity the Middle East would have been well different and the Greek - Roman civilization would have been less dominating [or probably different ... it would have been an "Egyptian - Greek - Roman" civilization ... Romans adopted and adapted ...].
Egyptians were and always have been different from the Greeks and Romans. Egyptians are Africans, not Middle Eastern. They may have a lot of similarities with Middle Eastern people, still doesn't change the fact they're Africans.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,606
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#60
Still doesn't change the fact that Egyptians (along with the early Near Eastern societies) laid the blueprints for Greeks to learn from and innovate. They play a role in the development in Western civilization, just not as much obviously as the Greco-Romans. And the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. It was only translated into Greek. New Testament however was written in Greek.


Greeks got their alphabet from Phoenicians, which in turn developed from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Phoenicians only settled in Western Sicily, Malta, Southern Corsica, Southern Spain, parts of Cyprus and Northwest Africa. There are some Phoenician ruins around those places, such as Cadiz, in of course modern day Lebanon, Eastern Cyprus and the biggest one is Carthage.


Egyptians were and always have been different from the Greeks and Romans. Egyptians are Africans, not Middle Eastern. They may have a lot of similarities with Middle Eastern people, still doesn't change the fact they're Africans.
Ancient Egypt was an African civilization. And Egyptians are Africans [honestly, I've never noted Egypt moving out of the African continent ...].

This said, that KmT was among the basis of following civilizations is simply history, but sure the temporal distance is not irrelevant. Obviously we are more similar to past civilizations which are more near to us. This is what I mean.
 

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