Why did France lose against MExico?

Sep 2012
1,216
Tarkington, Texas
Beware of the trap of thinking all Union Cavalry was equipped with Lever Action Repeaters. Many were equipped with Breechloaders like the Sharps and the Burnside. At Chicamauga Wilder's Lightning Brigade only had one Regiment with Spencers and Henry's the rest had Breechloaders. This Brigade broke the Confederate attack.

Pruitt
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
Except you are wrong again, the #1 rifle of the Union at the end of the war was the rifled Springfield Model 1861, in 1866 muskets were discontinued in the US Army, and rifled artillery was common amongst the Artillery of several different manufacturing designs:
In no way wrong. It is a muzzle loading musket, it is rfiled. Clearly inferroir to the Dreyse neddle gun.

Smooth bore was a reference to the standard artillery pace in service, whle there were many rifled artillery, the predominate pieces I think were still smoothbore. I have not found anything on numbers in service. But the 12 pounder Napoleon is often referred to as the most popular and common artillery piece of the civil war. In a cncounter where the million man Union army is a factor significnat numbers of artilley approaching a half woudl be smooth bore pieces. Sure they were not uysed after the war when a much smaller army was fielded.

The guns you mentioned what numbers were they in serrvice in?

The Inch Ordoennce was widespread, rivalled the Napoleon 12 pounder from what I can gather. But the others not so much,

Model 1861 6=pounder Wiard Towed field gun - 60 in service.
Model 1861 10-pounder Parrot Rifle towed Rifled field gun - known for exploding in service.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
200,000 Spencer Repeating rifles were manufactured between 1860 and 1869, and additional 14,000 of the Henry Repeating rifle (which was a superior weapon to the Spencer) were produced during the War, and bought individually by Union soldiers (and the Army supplied the ammunition for them once they figured out how dramatically valuable the Henry was holding 16 rounds).
The Spencer was never the standard isssue rifle of the Union/US Army.
 
Jun 2019
47
USA
he Monitor would be unable to hurt the warrior
Warrior had armor in the middle, but ends were unarmored, just wood. The hull itself wasn't armor
1578096904840.png
Next was the 68 pdr smoothbores on Warrior would be useless, and the 110 pdr Armstrongs proved weak at Kagoshima and then Shimonoseki, with numerous vent piece failures

The British Horsfel 13" gun, with 280 pound shot and 25 pounds powder, could piece the Warrior Target at Shoeburyness with ease, and the Dahlgren guns were far more powerful
 

Zip

Jan 2018
759
San Antonio
Beware of the trap of thinking all Union Cavalry was equipped with Lever Action Repeaters. Many were equipped with Breechloaders like the Sharps and the Burnside. At Chicamauga Wilder's Lightning Brigade only had one Regiment with Spencers and Henry's the rest had Breechloaders. This Brigade broke the Confederate attack.

Pruitt
I believe you are misinformed and Wilder's Brigade of mounted infantry, two Indiana and three Illinois regiments, was entirely armed with Spencer rifles. I just referenced Eric Wittenberg's book on Wilder's and Minty's brigades at Chickamauga "Holding the Line on the River of Death".

Regards
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
Warrior had armor in the middle, but ends were unarmored, just wood. The hull itself wasn't armor
View attachment 25931
Next was the 68 pdr smoothbores on Warrior would be useless, and the 110 pdr Armstrongs proved weak at Kagoshima and then Shimonoseki, with numerous vent piece failures

The British Horsfel 13" gun, with 280 pound shot and 25 pounds powder, could piece the Warrior Target at Shoeburyness with ease, and the Dahlgren guns were far more powerful
The Warrior used an Armored Citadel concept and there were transverse armored bulkheads,

"The armour covered the middle 213 feet (64.9 m) of the ship and extended 16 feet (4.9 m) above the waterline and 6 feet (1.8 m) below it. The guns on the main deck were protected from raking fire by 4.5-inch transverse bulkheads. The ends of the ship were unprotected, but were subdivided into watertight compartments to minimise flooding. The lack of armour at the stern meant that the steering gear and rudder were vulnerable"

I was quoting and basing my oininon the youtuber Drachinfel who is a naval history nerd.

Do you have actual penetration testing for the various guns?

"Warroir to dreadnought - warship dsign and development 1860-1905" (David K Brown)
page 15 speakingof 15inch US smoothbores (I would tink dahlgren)
"One of these guns was tried at Shoeburyness using cast steel shot (the US used cast iron) weighing 484 lbs with 50 olb pwoder (equivalent to 60ln US powder) It failed to penetrate the Lord Warden target which could be penetrated by the British 9inch. It was estimated that Warroir could not be penetrated at over 500 yards."


.
 
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Nov 2019
334
United States
Dahlgrens were not typically not all smootbore.
Dahlgren rifled guns
Dahlgren designed several rifled muzzle-loading cannon, as well.



Admiral David Dixon Porter, USN, Commander, North Atlantic Blockading Squadron, on the main deck of his flagship, USS Malvern, leaning against a 20-pounder Dahlgren Rifle. 1864.

Twenty-pounder rifle: an entirely bronze gun that was popular and was the only Dahlgren rifle (other than the 12-pounder boat howitzer) that continued in service after the American Civil War. Crew of six and a powder-boy, firing a 20 lb. shell in front of 2 lb. of powder it had a range of 1,960 yards at a 6.5° elevation.
Thirty-pounder rifle: these guns were iron with bronze trunnions and trunnion bands. They were cast at the Fort Pitt Foundry and the Washington Navy Yard. In February 1862, Dahlgren recommended that the first 13 cast at Fort Pitt be withdrawn because the iron was inferior. One 30-pounder rifle was mounted on USS Harriet Lane.
Fifty-pounder rifle: these guns were typical Dahlgren rifles—iron with bronze trunnions and trunnion bands. They were apparently a popular design, although by the end of the war it had been supplanted by the 60-pounder Parrott rifle, which continued in service after the American Civil War. A photograph of Admiral Dahlgren leaning against a 50-pounder rifle may be found at the beginning of this article.
Eighty-pounder rifle: the first 80-pounder was cast at the West Point foundry with trunnions. Subsequent rifles were cast without trunnions and bronze trunnion band and trunnions were added. The gun was initially well received but soon showed a tendency to burst. USS Hetzel, a converted Coastal Survey ship armed with one IX-inch Dahlgren and one 80-pounder Dahlgren rifle was engaged in the bombardment of Roanoke Island in support amphibious landings, when the following entry was made in her log for February 7, 1862: "At 5:15, rifled 80-pounder aft, loaded with six pounds powder and solid Dahlgren shot, 80 pounds, burst in the act of firing into four principal pieces. The gun forward of the trunnions fell on deck. One third of the breech passed over the mastheads and fell clear of the ship on the starboard bow. One struck on port quarter. And the fourth piece, weighing about 1,000 pounds, driving through the deck and magazine, bringing up on the keelson, set fire to the ship. Fire promptly extinguished." (Ripley 1984, p. 106)
One hundred-fifty-pounder rifle: the 150-pounder was a typical Dahlgren rifle with a cast iron barrel and a bronze trunnion band and trunnions. Although the test firing was successful the guns were not placed in service, because Dahlgren doubted the quality of the iron.
Twelve-inch rifle: in 1864 the Fort Pitt foundry bored three XV-inch Dahlgren shell gun blanks, one was finished using the Atwater design, one with the Parrott design, and one with the Rodman approach. The Rodman solid shot weighed 618 to 619 pounds and the Atwater solid shot 416 to 535 pounds. The weights of the Parrott projectiles are not recorded. In 1867, at Fort Monroe, the guns were tested with charges varying between 35 and 55 pounds until the guns failed.
Table of Dahlgren rifled guns
DesignationBoreLength
overall
Weight
of gun
Service
charge
Number
made
20-pdr rifle4 in.1,340 lb.2 lb.100
30-pdr rifle4.2 inc.92 in.3,200 pounds55
50-pdr rifle5.1 in.107 in.3,596 lb.34
80-pdr rifle6 in.6 lb.14
150-pdr rifle7.5 in.140 in.*5
12 in. rifle12 in.178 in.*45,500 lb.35–55 lb.3

And FYi Dahlgren had designed and built a 20".
 
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Sep 2012
1,216
Tarkington, Texas
I believe you are misinformed and Wilder's Brigade of mounted infantry, two Indiana and three Illinois regiments, was entirely armed with Spencer rifles. I just referenced Eric Wittenberg's book on Wilder's and Minty's brigades at Chickamauga "Holding the Line on the River of Death".

Regards
Actually, I know Eric. I got my data from a different book on Chickamauga. We used to argue all the time about the definition of Cavalry in the ACW. Eric believes that the Cavalry in the Eastern Theater was "True Cavalry". I like the Cavalry in the Western Theater and the Trans-Mississippi. They never had to tie recruits to the Horses in the Confederate service there. If you get the chance, buy Eric's books direct from him. The Publisher always gives authors books to sell. I buy from Donald S Fraser as well.

Pruitt
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
Dahlgrens were not typically not all smootbore.
Dahlgren rifled guns
Dahlgren designed several rifled muzzle-loading cannon, as well.



Admiral David Dixon Porter, USN, Commander, North Atlantic Blockading Squadron, on the main deck of his flagship, USS Malvern, leaning against a 20-pounder Dahlgren Rifle. 1864.

Twenty-pounder rifle: an entirely bronze gun that was popular and was the only Dahlgren rifle (other than the 12-pounder boat howitzer) that continued in service after the American Civil War. Crew of six and a powder-boy, firing a 20 lb. shell in front of 2 lb. of powder it had a range of 1,960 yards at a 6.5° elevation.
Thirty-pounder rifle: these guns were iron with bronze trunnions and trunnion bands. They were cast at the Fort Pitt Foundry and the Washington Navy Yard. In February 1862, Dahlgren recommended that the first 13 cast at Fort Pitt be withdrawn because the iron was inferior. One 30-pounder rifle was mounted on USS Harriet Lane.
Fifty-pounder rifle: these guns were typical Dahlgren rifles—iron with bronze trunnions and trunnion bands. They were apparently a popular design, although by the end of the war it had been supplanted by the 60-pounder Parrott rifle, which continued in service after the American Civil War. A photograph of Admiral Dahlgren leaning against a 50-pounder rifle may be found at the beginning of this article.
Eighty-pounder rifle: the first 80-pounder was cast at the West Point foundry with trunnions. Subsequent rifles were cast without trunnions and bronze trunnion band and trunnions were added. The gun was initially well received but soon showed a tendency to burst. USS Hetzel, a converted Coastal Survey ship armed with one IX-inch Dahlgren and one 80-pounder Dahlgren rifle was engaged in the bombardment of Roanoke Island in support amphibious landings, when the following entry was made in her log for February 7, 1862: "At 5:15, rifled 80-pounder aft, loaded with six pounds powder and solid Dahlgren shot, 80 pounds, burst in the act of firing into four principal pieces. The gun forward of the trunnions fell on deck. One third of the breech passed over the mastheads and fell clear of the ship on the starboard bow. One struck on port quarter. And the fourth piece, weighing about 1,000 pounds, driving through the deck and magazine, bringing up on the keelson, set fire to the ship. Fire promptly extinguished." (Ripley 1984, p. 106)
One hundred-fifty-pounder rifle: the 150-pounder was a typical Dahlgren rifle with a cast iron barrel and a bronze trunnion band and trunnions. Although the test firing was successful the guns were not placed in service, because Dahlgren doubted the quality of the iron.
Twelve-inch rifle: in 1864 the Fort Pitt foundry bored three XV-inch Dahlgren shell gun blanks, one was finished using the Atwater design, one with the Parrott design, and one with the Rodman approach. The Rodman solid shot weighed 618 to 619 pounds and the Atwater solid shot 416 to 535 pounds. The weights of the Parrott projectiles are not recorded. In 1867, at Fort Monroe, the guns were tested with charges varying between 35 and 55 pounds until the guns failed.
Table of Dahlgren rifled guns
DesignationBoreLength
overall
Weight
of gun
Service
charge
Number
made
20-pdr rifle4 in.1,340 lb.2 lb.100
30-pdr rifle4.2 inc.92 in.3,200 pounds55
50-pdr rifle5.1 in.107 in.3,596 lb.34
80-pdr rifle6 in.6 lb.14
150-pdr rifle7.5 in.140 in.*5
12 in. rifle12 in.178 in.*45,500 lb.35–55 lb.3
And FYi Dahlgren had designed and built a 20".
But the Guns on the Monitor were smooth bore. The US had poor metallurgical industries, working with poorer metals making inferoir armor , and worse powder than the Royal Navy.


The Royal Navy also had better ships thanteh Warroir by 1865


with better guns than the warroir
 
Nov 2019
334
United States
But the Guns on the Monitor were smooth bore. The US had poor metallurgical industries, working with poorer metals making inferoir armor , and worse powder than the Royal Navy.


The Royal Navy also had better ships thanteh Warroir by 1865


with better guns than the warroir
The U.S. didn't have the luxury of building singular ships as showboats for modern navies, they were building fleets large enough to cover thousands of miles of coastline to embargo the South. Iron cannons were inexpensive and effective. You denigrate the river naval forces without conceiving how absolutely critical they were to the war. The Mississippi, Ohio, Cumberland, Tennessee, Chesapeake Bay, Cape Fear and other coastal waters were where the war had to be fought. Dividing the Confederacy piecemeal (Anaconda) was the means by which in the end the war was won.

This is as always the case when discussing the war with Europeans, you can't seemingly envision fighting a war on such a large field. The distance between London and Berlin is 579 miles. That is a little more than the drive across my state; to me just a simple 8 hour drive. The distance from London to Moscow; the distance between my sister and I, a 1.5 day drive from my house to L.A..

The scope of the area fought in the Civil War was 900 miles East to West by 766 miles North to South. A distance roughly equivalent to Sicily to Copenhagen, and Pas De Calais to Warsaw, fought simultaneously with different Armies at multiple locations. Sort of like WW2.
 
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