Why did France lose against MExico?

Zip

Jan 2018
759
San Antonio
The first trapdoor Springfield was the Model 1865 and the subsequent Model 1866 was used in the Red Cloud War to great effect, most famously at the Wagon Box Fight.
 
Last edited:

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
The first trapdoor Springfield was the Model 1865 and the subsequent Model 1866 was used in the Red Cloud War to great effect, most famously at the Wagon Box Fight.
It's not when it was first use but when it was rolled out as standard issue rifle in the army. If we are talking about rating the overall army.

There were a lot of firearms used in the US civil war. But equiping all the army is different matter.
 

Zip

Jan 2018
759
San Antonio
It's not when it was first use but when it was rolled out as standard issue rifle in the army. If we are talking about rating the overall army.
You claimed the 1873 model was the first trap door adopted, which is an error. In 1867 the infantry of the United States Army was armed with the 1866 Springfield, 50,000 of which had been made by August of 1867. The Model 1873 later supplanted it. Cavalry of that time was usually armed with Spencer repeaters until they were replaced by the carbine version of the 1873.
 
Last edited:

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
You claimed the 1873 model was the first trap door adopted, which is an error. In 1867 the infantry of the United States Army was armed with the 1866 Springfield, 50,000 of which had been made by August of 1867. The Model 1873 later supplanted it. Cavalry of that time was usually armed with Spencer repeaters until they were replaced by the carbine version of the 1873.
Adopted as the standard issue rifle of all infantry. from what I;ve read the 1867 was not rolled out to all units. There is a difference betwen some units using a weapopn and it beingthe standard weapon for most units,


"ususally armed with": it's vague you got actual figures.
 
Oct 2019
79
Near the dogbowl
I used 1866 figure for the Prussians as I did not have the 1865 figure but I think It's reasonable to be somewhat close.
Very good, apologies I was getting slightly confused (the wife says thats a continuous condition).


US army adoption of trap door Springfield was 1873.
INdeed. There is an earlier mark that was adopted however. The 1873 fixed issues related to it IIRC.
Springfield Model 1866 - Wikipedia




I'm ignoring transport/deployment issues (others are free to discuss) as I think that debate goes nowhere very fast as no one is capable of lading a very large Amry in the Americas and the US cannot in Europe.
I understand. Part of the issue is that the European powers had large standing armies due to their proximity, which the US did not have as it was not required. But I guess that is mitigated if we compare the US military right at the end of the Civil War, in which case Prussia is not fully desked out with needle rifles yet.

I would proffer a command staff that has been through 4 years of continuous heavy warfare would be superior to one that had not, even if the Prussians had a general staff - applying the continuous improvement of the US in both the ACW and WWII, as well as a similar Darwinian evolution of the USSR from 1941 - 1945. But those wacky Gemans...er Prussians might have a better logistical staff.

Having said that, as history shows, the French are definitely not the Prussians... :zany:
 

Zip

Jan 2018
759
San Antonio
Adopted as the standard issue rifle of all infantry. from what I;ve read the 1867 was not rolled out to all units. There is a difference betwen some units using a weapopn and it beingthe standard weapon for most units,
You're really quibbling now. What do you think an army of 57,000 men was doing with 50,000 Model 1866 infantry rifles? It won't hurt your credibility to admit error or grant a point once in awhile. Especially in a fantasy discussion.

Anyway, according to "Frontier Regulars" by Utley the Model 1866 was the standard infantry arm. Utley discusses the 1866 and the development of the 1873 model.
 
Last edited:

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
You're really quibbling now. What do you think an army of 57,000 men was doing with 50,000 Model 1866 infantry rifles? It won't hurt your credibility to admit error or grant a point once in awhile. Especially in a fantasy discussion.

Anyway, according to "Frontier Regulars" by Utley the Model 1866 was the standard infantry arm. Utley discusses the 1866 and the development of the 1873 model.
Well I coul dbe wrong ish I kjust looked up a lit of standard issue rifles for the US army and took that. It didn;t mentionteh 1866.

However the conext is the million man Union army immediately on the end of the civil war.,
they were not going to hgave enough trap dooor rfiles. An amryof 57,000 would just be rolled over by any major power;'s army.
 
Oct 2019
79
Near the dogbowl
Well I coul dbe wrong ish I kjust looked up a lit of standard issue rifles for the US army and took that. It didn;t mentionteh 1866.

However the conext is the million man Union army immediately on the end of the civil war.,
they were not going to hgave enough trap dooor rfiles. An amryof 57,000 would just be rolled over by any major power;'s army.
Yes, at the same time if its 1864 then the Prussians aren't nearly fully equipped with needle rifles either.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,909
Spain
In 1863, USA was not in a position to face France ... With the Confederates half an hour from Washington! So.. the war between Mexico and France (in fact... mexicans vs mexicans).. was a war played by Mexicans and who beat French Troops were Mexicans. If USA.. would have took part.. France would have declared War... and Richmond, Montgomery and Atlanta...would have jumped for joy ...I guess Bazaine next Lee...