Why did only Asian based countries defeat the Mongol invasions?

Mar 2012
2,351
#21
That is one way to interpret it. I interpreted it differently because the acts of looting was mentioned after the wall fighting.
The thing is, in the quote you posted, there is no mention of a breakthrough at all. Kind of a big detail to leave out.

The Mongols swept through Moravia in less than a month, long enough, however, for a legend to grow that they were repulsed by Yaroslav of Steinberg from the citadel of Olmutz, where 'Peta' (Baidar) was killed. The story is probably basedon the events of a quite different campaign in 1253, and Baidar in any case lived to be present at Kuyuk's inauguration in 1246. Juvaini, I, 244. The Czech historian Vadar Novotny has set the record straight in a study published at Prague in 1928, but as I am ignorant of Czech, I can only refer to Vernadsky's note in The Mongols and Russia, 56. -History of the Mongol Conquests
I have found several sources that say that the myth is that it was based on subsequent events. From what I can tell, the ultimate source is Persian historian Rashid Al-Din Hamadai.

If it's just a raiding party? Then they can lose a lot of times, because that's what nomadic tribes had been doing since time immemorial for thousands of years, and if it's so costly then I must wonder how they still have plenty of descendants here alive and kicking.
But it seems that they attempted and failed to take dozens of fortified places in every place they invaded. I named a few and will compile others as I continue to have time to research the authenticity of each. I think that especially given the limited nature of the forces brought to Europe, that bled them. Neither of us have any way to tell how many were brought to each failed siege and how many are lost. Seems to me like a slow bleed.


Most of the castles in both Eastern and Central Europe during the eve of Mongol invasion were just mottes and baileys. And if the Mongols ever do reach Central Europe, then they would be taking it with an army of Europeans. Mongols always use local forces after the initial spearhead campaign, the process was already beginning to happen in Europe. They don't have the manpower to gain such a vast empire by Mongol population alone. They wouldn't even be able to hold the empire with Mongol population alone if their enemies simply handed the land over to them.
But Central Europe was far more well fortified than Eastern Europe, where they were undeniably having trouble with the sieges. And also there is the problem of the steppe running out. That they could have called upon a coalition of European allies is speculation.

Because they didn't. Ogodei died in December 11, 1241. News reached Mongol headquarters in Europe in February 1242. Batu withdrew in the late spring of 1242.
I believe that it is a historical fact that Batu did not go back to Karakorum immediately but dragged his feet, which is why Guyuk was not confirmed until 1246. Correct me if I am wrong. If this is so (and I am pretty sure that it is) then Ogedei's death is effectively removed as the cause of abandoning the campaign.

Golden Horde < Unified Mongol Empire
Wasn't there only something like three tumans in the campaign anyway?

I didn't say they were invincible, they lost plenty of times all over the place, with many humiliating defeats to boot. They just won more than they lost on average. It's their ability to recruit local forces that allowed them to gain the upperhand despite losses.
Whether they can conquer all of Europe if Mongke and Ogedei didn't die, I don't know. If I had that power of prediction I would be making a killing with the stock market. All I can say with reasonable safety is that Hungary, Poland, and Russia was either gone or as good as gone. How much further they can push west depends on how much the locals are willing to join the evil they don't know to fight against the evil they do know.
I am just making some arguments here. But check out the entire timeline succession. You may very well know better than I, but a source I was reading pointed out that there was no immediate return. I never thought about it, but indeed, that appears to be the case.

They kinda did. Explained above.
See above. Batu did not return immediately. This is from Wiki, but I was just reading the very same thing in a book the other day:

Withdrawing from Hungary, Batu made his camps along the banks of the Volga. When the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatun"]Great Khatun[/ame]Töregene invited him to elect the next [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor"]Emperor[/ame] of the Mongol Empire, Batu announced his inability to attend any immediate kurultai, thus delaying the succession for several years. Eventually, Güyük was elected Khagan in 1246

So it indeed seems that he withdrew from Europe and then did NOT go home.
 
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Feb 2011
6,453
#22
The thing is, in the quote you posted, there is no mention of a breakthrough at all. Kind of a big detail to leave out.
Even more of a big deal to say that the Mongols actually lost as if they were militarily defeated, what's your point? The entire passage lists a sequence of events in chronological order. Kind of a big deal the monk would describe looting not before there were fighting on the walls, but after.
[/quote]
But it seems that they attempted and failed to take dozens of fortified places in every place they invaded. I named a few and will compile others as I continue to have time to research the authenticity of each.
You did admit that you were unfamiliar with the ones you already listed, so I expect that to be described too.

I think that especially given the limited nature of the forces brought to Europe, that bled them. Neither of us have any way to tell how many were brought to each failed siege and how many are lost. Seems to me like a slow bleed.
Just a couple examples:

Esztergom, Fehervar (Székesfehérvár), Veszprem, Rab(which I believe is mistaken as Gyor, which is also called Raab, in the list, in which the Mongols did in fact occupy), Pannonhalma abbey:Kadan attacked with only a vanguard detachment from the main army. His primary objective was to chase down Hungarian King Bela IV rather than occupying towns or cities. When a place didn’t capitulate for several days or seemed too daunting, the Mongol vanguard simply left and continued its pursuit of Bela IV. It is doubtful if these places could resist if Kadan was willing to wait out months as was typical of sieges, and if he had an actual army rather than a vanguard force, or if he thought taking these places would allow him to accomplish his primary objective of capturing Bela IV. For example, Kadan only attacked the castle of Kliss when he believed that Bela was inside, but the Mongols retreated despite being on the verge of taking the castle when they found out that Bela was not there.

Nyitra, Pozsony, Komarom: The “sieges” were all done by a fourth army that came from Poland moving through Bohemia, led by Orda. Like Kadan’s vanguard detachment, this army was under a tight schedule. Orda’s primary objective was to regroup with the main army, and so would leave for easier loot elsewhere if anyplace didn’t capitulate quickly. Like Kadan’s vanguard, there was no attempt to siege for months. Esztergom, Nyitra, and Pozsony itself were actually sacked, and if the Mongols made a serious effort to take the keeps/castles/monasteries adjacent/within the urban centers, then it is doubtful if the castles/monasteries would stand.

Sopron, Moson, Vasvar: Westernmost territories of Hungary. Mongol armies didn’t even send forces to occupy these places; Frederick II of Austria did when he extorted them from Bela IV when the Hungarian King fled into Frederick’s realm due to the pursuing Mongolians. If Bela IV honestly thought that he had a safe place within Hungary to hole himself up against the Mongol onslaught, then he probably wouldn’t be caught dead within the realm of his archenemy Frederick the Warlike. Considering Frederick ended up blackmailing Bela IV, fleeing from one enemy by seeking refuge with another enemy is a bad idea, and is probably an act of desperation on Bela’s part.

But Central Europe was far more well fortified than Eastern Europe, where they were undeniably having trouble with the sieges. And also there is the problem of the steppe running out.
As stated before Central European fortifications were mostly mottes and baileys, albeit at this time they were undergoing the transition from wood to stone. The Mongols had seen far worse. Cental Europe was also undergoing a lot of infighting, with the Holy Roman Empire waging war against the Pope and the Chrisitians waging war against the Lithuainians.

That they could have called upon a coalition of European allies is speculation.
No it's not. Mongol armies were already recruiting Georgian and Armenian elements into their army, and there were forces of Rus/Volhemia that as part of the Mongol attack of Poland in the 1250s. Recruiting local forces was what they did EVERYWHERE else because there's no other way they could win and they know it, there's simply not enough Mongol population to do all the conquering. There's no reason to believe Europe was special unless the Mongols thought the region was so weak that they don't need local forces, and they didn't think this for everywhere else they conquered.

I believe that it is a historical fact that Batu did not go back to Karakorum immediately but dragged his feet, which is why Guyuk was not confirmed until 1246. Correct me if I am wrong. If this is so (and I am pretty sure that it is) then Ogedei's death is effectively removed as the cause of abandoning the campaign.
Batu was dragging the election process, he didn't want guyuk to be made khan. And this was justified considering guyuk's first action as Khan was to make war on Batu. You may argue that Batu didn't have the forces to push further into Europe during the death of ogedei, but he had more than enough to consolidate Hungary considering there wasn't much of Hungarian resistance left besides scattered castles behind enemy lines.

Wasn't there only something like three tumans in the campaign anyway?
Yeah, that's not a lot.

I am just making some arguments here. But check out the entire timeline succession. You may very well know better than I, but a source I was reading pointed out that there was no immediate return. I never thought about it, but indeed, that appears to be the case.



See above. Batu did not return immediately. This is from Wiki, but I was just reading the very same thing in a book the other day:

Withdrawing from Hungary, Batu made his camps along the banks of the Volga. When the Great KhatunTöregene invited him to elect the next Emperor of the Mongol Empire, Batu announced his inability to attend any immediate kurultai, thus delaying the succession for several years. Eventually, Güyük was elected Khagan in 1246

So it indeed seems that he withdrew from Europe and then did NOT go home.
That's not about returning that's about stalling the election process because Batu and Guyuk didn't get along. Batu was never at guyuk's coronation, he feigned illness. Now I see that there are conflicting accounts of whether Batu left for Mongolia during the spring of 1422, but if he didn't then he never went back to Mongolia at all in the fist place. Anyway I will have to check the primary sources.
 
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Jul 2014
94
Melbourne
#23
"There were three instances where the Koreans defeated Mongols.
The next one was on Fort Cheo-In, year 1232, when 30,000 Mongolic troops under general Salitai invaded. It took just one shot of god from Militia leader Kim Yoon Hu to kill the all mighty mongolic general. The Mongolic army retreated soon after, and a miraculous victory was obtained. Because it was such a victorious day for the Koreans, they build a tower to honor the kill.
Sammak-Sa 3 storey tower
The other one happened in 1236, In fort Jook Ju, by 1000 recruits under militia general Song Moon Ju against the 24000 mongolic forces. The mongols brought cannons all the way from China, and were bombarding the walls. However, during the 15 day combat, the militias were able to defeat the mongols. It was because general Song knew the mongolic strategy from Kweeju battle, a previous korean victory over Jurchens, who also employed similar tactics in comparison with the Mongols. Also, Song had rooted many Poles on the walls, creating a psycological blow to the mongols (they thought more men were defending the place than their numbers). Finally, the fort was also triple walled, and so cannons were less effective in bringing the wall down.
The other one was by Kim Yoon Hu again, 1253, versus the mongols under Yagul. The mongols had raveged through 2 other forts, and layed siege for 70 days in Choong Ju, a fort. As moral and supply were running out, he called out : "If we dare to fight and win, I shall pummel all class levels and sacrifice all titles!" and encouraged the caste classes who were left on the fort fighting (the mayor and the rich ones had fled the town before the siege). The battle is remembered more as a struggle for humanitarian rights more than a battle to defeat the mongols. The Mongols, after exhaustion, retreated. This fort was never conquered by the mongols throughout the history of Korea."


I know.

What I'm saying is that Mongols are not undefeatable army.
They eventually succeeded but sometimes they lost battles.

I can't say that was successfully defenced war.
Truth is that Goryo lost war and they also lost a lot of people and buildings etc.
 
Mar 2012
2,351
#25
Even more of a big deal to say that the Mongols actually lost as if they were militarily defeated, what's your point? The entire passage lists a sequence of events in chronological order. Kind of a big deal the monk would describe looting not before there were fighting on the walls, but after.


You did admit that you were unfamiliar with the ones you already listed, so I expect that to be described too.



Just a couple examples:

Esztergom, Fehervar (Székesfehérvár), Veszprem, Rab(which I believe is mistaken as Gyor, which is also called Raab, in the list, in which the Mongols did in fact occupy), Pannonhalma abbey:Kadan attacked with only a vanguard detachment from the main army. His primary objective was to chase down Hungarian King Bela IV rather than occupying towns or cities. When a place didn’t capitulate for several days or seemed too daunting, the Mongol vanguard simply left and continued its pursuit of Bela IV. It is doubtful if these places could resist if Kadan was willing to wait out months as was typical of sieges, and if he had an actual army rather than a vanguard force, or if he thought taking these places would allow him to accomplish his primary objective of capturing Bela IV. For example, Kadan only attacked the castle of Kliss when he believed that Bela was inside, but the Mongols retreated despite being on the verge of taking the castle when they found out that Bela was not there.

Nyitra, Pozsony, Komarom: The “sieges” were all done by a fourth army that came from Poland moving through Bohemia, led by Orda. Like Kadan’s vanguard detachment, this army was under a tight schedule. Orda’s primary objective was to regroup with the main army, and so would leave for easier loot elsewhere if anyplace didn’t capitulate quickly. Like Kadan’s vanguard, there was no attempt to siege for months. Esztergom, Nyitra, and Pozsony itself were actually sacked, and if the Mongols made a serious effort to take the keeps/castles/monasteries adjacent/within the urban centers, then it is doubtful if the castles/monasteries would stand.

Sopron, Moson, Vasvar: Westernmost territories of Hungary. Mongol armies didn’t even send forces to occupy these places; Frederick II of Austria did when he extorted them from Bela IV when the Hungarian King fled into Frederick’s realm due to the pursuing Mongolians. If Bela IV honestly thought that he had a safe place within Hungary to hole himself up against the Mongol onslaught, then he probably wouldn’t be caught dead within the realm of his archenemy Frederick the Warlike. Considering Frederick ended up blackmailing Bela IV, fleeing from one enemy by seeking refuge with another enemy is a bad idea, and is probably an act of desperation on Bela’s part.



As stated before Central European fortifications were mostly mottes and baileys, albeit at this time they were undergoing the transition from wood to stone. The Mongols had seen far worse. Cental Europe was also undergoing a lot of infighting, with the Holy Roman Empire waging war against the Pope and the Chrisitians waging war against the Lithuainians.



No it's not. Mongol armies were already recruiting Georgian and Armenian elements into their army, and there were forces of Rus/Volhemia that as part of the Mongol attack of Poland in the 1250s. Recruiting local forces was what they did EVERYWHERE else because there's no other way they could win and they know it, there's simply not enough Mongol population to do all the conquering. There's no reason to believe Europe was special unless the Mongols thought the region was so weak that they don't need local forces, and they didn't think this for everywhere else they conquered.



Batu was dragging the election process, he didn't want guyuk to be made khan. And this was justified considering guyuk's first action as Khan was to make war on Batu. You may argue that Batu didn't have the forces to push further into Europe during the death of ogedei, but he had more than enough to consolidate Hungary considering there wasn't much of Hungarian resistance left besides scattered castles behind enemy lines.



Yeah, that's not a lot.



That's not about returning that's about stalling the election process because Batu and Guyuk didn't get along. Batu was never at guyuk's coronation, he feigned illness. Now I see that there are conflicting accounts of whether Batu left for Mongolia during the spring of 1422, but if he didn't then he never went back to Mongolia at all in the fist place. Anyway I will have to check the primary sources.
I am not going to do the point by point because a lot of this is going in circles. I say they lost in dozens of sieges and the quote that you posted about Kliss does not show otherwise, you have replied that you think they are small detachments. You say Olomuoc is a myth, I say that it goes back to solid sources and there is no reason to believe so. You think central Europe's fortifications were not strong, whereas I point out that they were stronger than those that the Mongols were failing to take.

The crux of this thing is Batu did not return to Mongolia, and I think you just did acknowledged that you are starting to see some sources of that. Nor is the issue the feud with Guyuk since he had no indication that Guyuk would win, and he refused to be part of even the election process.

If Batu did not return home, then the idea that he abandoned the invasion because of Ogedei's death is flat out incorrect...an excuse at best. This is what I have come up with in my researches, and given that I have uncovered dozens of defeats, I believe that this is the real reason that they left. It is entirely possible that we are never going to know, but I am going to continue to research this and let people know about this vast, glaring inconsistency in the official narrative.

In my mind, they were bled dry and left because they could not continue and had no hope of winning, and used Ogedei's death as an excuse, as evidenced by the fact that they did not bother go home for four years.
 
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Feb 2011
6,453
#26
My quote about Kliss shows they weren't repulsed militarily, but merely pulled out when they realized that their objective was not at Kliss. This is recorded by Europeans, not Mongols, why would the Europeans make excuses for the Mongols? Again, without the death of ogedei they would have at the very least taken Hungary, the king of Hungary thought so or else he would have never sought sanctuary from his worst enemy, and the Mongol army pretty much marched from one end of his country to the other end. Whether Batu left for Mongolia or not, it is a fact that by all indications Guyuk's was going to be khan. Guyuk's own mother was acting regent and had made her allies occupy the necessary positions in court to enforce her will.

Mongols had suffered defeats in which their entire campaign was forced to retreat, regroup, and start an entirely new campaign from the borders. Bypassing a fortress for easier loot is hardly comparable. Pillaging a town but leaving the central or nearby fort intact, going somewhere else to pillage easy prey, quickly giving up in mere days places that proved more defensible, going somewhere else to plunder a hapless village, rinse and repeat, is hardly a comparable defeat by any means. Such "defeats" had been part of nomadic history since time immemorial, it's what they do as a living, so if such defeats could bleed them dry then Mongols would be an extinct ethnic group by now.

If the myth of olmouc is a solid source then please give the reason and said solid source. I would like to read it.
Anyway I'm not saying Mongols can conquer Europe, there's way too many variables for that. I'm just saying that Hungary was pretty much conquered just prior to ogedei's death, and I think it's a safe bet that Germany would be taken considering they were warring with Italy. Germany didn't exactly have a stable political atmosphere at the time. Whether the Mongols can take the rest after Germany would largely depend on who the locals side with.
 
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Jul 2013
393
USA
#27
I know.

What I'm saying is that Mongols are not undefeatable army.
They eventually succeeded but sometimes they lost battles.

I can't say that was successfully defenced war.
Truth is that Goryo lost war and they also lost a lot of people and buildings etc.
Yes I suppose they lost the way but maintained autonomy .

The last Yuan dynasty khans were both half Korean , Ayushirida and his younger brother. They asked Korean king for assistance against the Han but they are denied.

Also empress Ki being full Korean became empress of the Yuan. Although it was short lived and she mysteriously dissaperd to Mongolia.
 
Jul 2014
94
Melbourne
#28
Yes I suppose they lost the way but maintained autonomy .

The last Yuan dynasty khans were both half Korean , Ayushirida and his younger brother. They asked Korean king for assistance against the Han but they are denied.

Also empress Ki being full Korean became empress of the Yuan. Although it was short lived and she mysteriously dissaperd to Mongolia.

Why don't we just use Goryo instead of Korean and Ming instead of Han??

It can sound like a bit sensitive but
one thing I really hate is that some nationalists tend to equate themselves with what historic people did.
Although it is likely that those nationalists and the group people in history doesn't really matter each other.

For example,
Wow Look at this, we Chinese won the war~we're superior~ Chinese ethnity built vietnamese kingdom. we tought them civilization~.
We slaughtered them etc......


In that point of view,
the last Yuan dynasty Khans were both half Goryo, they asked Goryo king for assistance against the Ming .....

Goryo did, Not Korean.
 
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Jul 2013
393
USA
#29
Why don't we just use Goryo instead of Korean and Ming instead of Han??

It can sound like a bit sensitive but
one thing I really hate is that some nationalists tend to equate themselves with what historic people did.
Although it is likely that those nationalists and the group people in history doesn't really matter each other.

For example,
Wow Look at this, we Chinese won the war~we're superior~ Chinese ethnity built vietnamese kingdom. we tought them civilization~.
We slaughtered them etc......


In that point of view,
the last Yuan dynasty Khans were both half Goryo, they asked Goryo king for assistance against the Ming .....

Goryo did, Not Korean.
Lol Goryeo is Korean. Unlike China , Korea has a continous line of rule.

But China is different because dynasties were mainly ethnicity based, and the succeeding dynasties would either continue or create a new ethnic dynasty.



Korea has been ruled by Koreans / Proto Koreans since the beginning.
 
Jun 2013
1,445
Mundo Nuevo
#30
^^
"continuous line of rule"

So Silla, Goryeo, and Joseon were all ruled by one dynasty. Wow I never knew that, I wonder why they used different dynastic names and had completely different surnames!

Those are exonyms which foreigners use to call Koreans, not what Koreans consistently call themselves. Koreans call themselves by whatever dynasty was in power.

Same thing with China where foreigners called people in China as Han people, for centuries after the Han dynasty fell.

All Chinese dynasties since the Zhou viewed themselves as ruling a state called "Zhongguo".

All dynasties ruling Vietnam after the 10th century viewed themselves as ruling a state called "Dai Viet" until the Nguyen dynasty. (except for the short lived Ho dynasty which tried to change Dai Viet to Dai Ngu during its six year rule)

Japan called itself Nihon since 1,300 years ago.

Korea did not use a consistent name for itself. It just called the state by whatever dynasty was then in power.