Why didn't Americans staged a revolt against their government to stop the Vietnam war?

Status
Closed

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,749
USA
It was an anti draft movement as much as, or even more than, an anti war movement. That the United States now use professional soldiers is why the general populace doesn't much give a damn how many wars are fought or for how long.
To expand on this. Nixon made it a priority, though it took some time because of politics, to fix the Draft, which was done by 1971, which removed many of the policies that had made it so unpopular earlier (mainly the deferments). Yes, while some of the anti-war movement was tied to the Draft, it was more related to politics.

Universities aren't exactly centrists in the US, since the 50-60s there was a major shift as more European educated professors of the Frankfurt School came to the US to teach, who used the institutions for indoctrination in the long march through the institutions, where they established havens of far left ideology, which of course spread to student bodies, as that was the point. The loudest protests originating from the student bodies (aided by various professors and administrators) came from groups like Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), who were very far left leaning, their own charter positioned them as "anti-anti-Communism". They organized a lot of the opposition, which spread to a lot of the rest of the youth, tying it with the Counter Culture movement that had been brewing since the early 60s, and the Civil Rights movement. So it was simply popular to be anti-war, at least if one was young. As my father said, "To be against the war meant you were hip." The media was on board too, especially younger generation. It created a loud minority, but overall most Americans were still pro-war, these were later referred to as the Silent Majority (who got Nixon elected).

The big political shift occurred leading up the 1968 Democratic Primaries, where numerous contenders who had previously been pro-war, read the tea leaves of popularity, noticed the shifting winds of the Democratic Party, and that became a major party platform for the party who'd started the war. This worked out well for them, especially after Nixon won the presidential election, as they were his opposition, they controlled both House and Senate in Congress, so could impede Nixon as much as they wanted, which is just how politics work (all sides do that). Impeding Nixon who was trying to fix Vietnam means sabotaging him (similarly to how Republicans sometimes tried to do the same to FDR during WW2, its just politics).

Nixon won in '68 running on a Law and Order platform, appealing to the older generation who were quite sickened by the chaos happening in America due to the counter culture and civil rights riots and mass protests, where the summer of 1968 saw most US cities suffer major rioting and arson. Nixon also wanted to end the war in Vietnam, but done victoriously, by finally allowing the US military to take the gloves off, not completely, but removing many of the insane stipulations that the LBJ administration had been doing (like telling North Vietnam exactly where were going to bomb, so they could move civilians out, where as they moved out anything of importance and moved in SAMs). Nixon also took the war to the safe havens, Laos and Cambodia, which should have been done early in the war but LBJ didn't have the guts. He also lost the criminally stupid McNamara, and reshuffled MACV leadership, which saw major changes for the betterment of the conflict, as the generals running it under the LBJ administration, specifically Westmoreland, were chiefly responsible for us losing the war through their incompetence.

Worth watching to showcase what role leadership plays in warfare: Westmoreland: The General Who Lost Vietnam

Nixon's administration, far from perfect, was still on much better straights than LBJ. The National Liberation Front (Viet Cong) had broken themselves in the Jan '68 Tet Offensive. North Vietnam was weakening and finally having their supply line and logistics in North Vietnam targeted. Vietnamization and other COIN policies replaced the asinine Search and Destroy/Body Count policy used under the LBJ administration. The South Vietnamese, far from perfect, at least were holding together in the calamity of a mixed major communist insurgency plus a foreign invasion originating along their entire border.

But by then, too many Americans, specifically those who weren't fans of Nixon, were against the war. They wanted us out, they didn't care if South Vietnam fell to communist, to them that wasn't a big deal as many had some sympathy already for various left wing ideologies. So we left. And then Saigon fell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist and Rodger

Zip

Jan 2018
502
Comancheria
@aggienation

Lots of us working class guys wanted out of the draft too, not just college students. We weren't so dumb.

And when talking Nixon's election don't forget his southern strategy which by making the GOP a home for racists made the party dominant in the South.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,749
USA
@aggienation

Lots of us working class guys wanted out of the draft too, not just college students. We weren't so dumb.
It wasn't about being dumb, it was about access to easy routes to avoid the Draft. Namely being admitted as a college student, instead deferment. There should not have been any deferments besides those for individuals legitimately disqualified from service, which is more or less how the Draft was fixed in '71.

I get that you wanted out of the Draft. Many do. Its not volunteer. Meanwhile, what unit in Vietnam did you serve in?

Lots of us working class guys wanted out of the draft too, not just college students. We weren't so dumb.

And when talking Nixon's election don't forget his southern strategy which by making the GOP a home for racists made the party dominant in the South.
Fake news and lies.

By the mid to late 60s the Democratic Party was usurped fully by urban elite, far left. Meanwhile, one would be absolutely insane to declare that Democrats didn't continue to be racist afterwards. Are you suggesting racists like Senator Byrd, (D), KKK leader and father figure to Hillary, suddenly switched to being Republicans. Who are you referring to?

How about LBJ? There are few more racist individuals in the 20th century who have lived in the White House.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
Fake news and lies.

By the mid to late 60s the Democratic Party was usurped fully by urban elite, far left. Meanwhile, one would be absolutely insane to declare that Democrats didn't continue to be racist afterwards. Are you suggesting racists like Senator Byrd, (D), KKK leader and father figure to Hillary, suddenly switched to being Republicans. Who are you referring to?

How about LBJ? There are few more racist individuals in the 20th century who have lived in the White House.
Al Gore's dad too.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,749
USA
Al Gore's dad too.
A whole lot of them. Its not like suddenly everyone who voted D stopped hating everyone else.

Look at the big cities from 20s to now. Many whites, like the Irish and Italians, heavily have and still vote D. And many hate blacks. Boston was a Democratic haven, look at the Boston Busing Crisis. That wasn't Republicans doing that...

Jews are similar, many are very racist, even today, their use of the word "shvartze" is extremely prevalent, even today, as few know what it means (pejorative word for Black, in Yiddish).

And many blacks hate whites, and in some cities in the SW and W, their rivalry and hatred with Latinos is legendary, holy crap do they hate one another solely based on race. I don't buy the make believe definition that one can't be racist unless they have racial privilege to oppress others (meaning, only whites).

And Asians. They hate everyone. Probably the most racist people I've ever met in my life were Japanese. I think Hawaiians would be a close second. Guess who those groups in America vote primarily? Not Republican...
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
A whole lot of them. Its not like suddenly everyone who voted D stopped hating everyone else.

Look at the big cities from 20s to now. Many whites, like the Irish and Italians, heavily have and still vote D. And many hate blacks. Boston was a Democratic haven, look at the Boston Busing Crisis. That wasn't Republicans doing that...

Jews are similar, many are very racist, even today, their use of the word "shvartze" is extremely prevalent, even today, as few know what it means (pejorative word for Black, in Yiddish).

And many blacks hate whites, and in some cities in the SW and W, their rivalry and hatred with Latinos is legendary, holy crap do they hate one another solely based on race. I don't buy the make believe definition that one can't be racist unless they have racial privilege to oppress others (meaning, only whites).

And Asians. They hate everyone. Probably the most racist people I've ever met in my life were Japanese. I think Hawaiians would be a close second. Guess who those groups in America vote primarily? Not Republican...
It's odd you should mention it. My best friend from high school, the only person from those days I still contact, lives out west. He is Jewish American and has always been very liberal. Back in the days of my youth, I thought like him, but we have since parted ways on the ideological spectrum. I never discuss politics with him because of this. I simply don't wish to lose a friend over my turnabout. Anyway, I was speaking with him a few weeks ago and he mentioned in the course of a conversation which he initiated that he wished an unnamed president would build a wall around the city where he resides. I found this very curious, as I know he doesn't' like this unnamed president. I thought he was being facetious, and so I asked him if he was. To my surprise, he stated with all serious of intent, "no, I'm serious. We need one to keep the Latinos out." He then proceeded to tell me how they are taking over. I never thought I would here this from the guy who lives and breathes as a SJW.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aggienation

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,749
USA
It's odd you should mention it. My best friend from high school, the only person from those days I still contact, lives out west. He is Jewish American and has always been very liberal. Back in the days of my youth, I thought like him, but we have since parted ways on the ideological spectrum. I never discuss politics with him because of this. I simply don't wish to lose a friend over my turnabout. Anyway, I was speaking with him a few weeks ago and he mentioned in the course of a conversation which he initiated that he wished an unnamed president would build a wall around the city where he resides. I found this very curious, as I know he doesn't' like this unnamed presiden. I thought he was being facetious, and so I asked him if he was. To my surprise, he stated with all serious of intent, "no, I'm serious. We need one to keep the Latins out." He then proceeded to tell me how they are taking over. I never thought I would here this from the guy who lives and breathes as a SJW.
Chelsea Handler is a "comedian" who specializes in SJW "jokes" (quotes are because she's not funny). She lives in very upscale part of NYC. There is a MAJOR disparity of wealth between those neighborhoods and those that are poorer. So there is a push in NYC to desegregate and bus in more minorities to those really good public schools, where all the kids go to top notch colleges, and then send the rich kids to the ghetto schools. Guess which SJW had a MAJOR problem with that? Because hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Its like Al Gore. The makes literally hundreds of millions of dollars fear mongering Climate Change. And has a gigantic individual carbon footprint.

Its just how the world works.
 

Zip

Jan 2018
502
Comancheria
I get that you wanted out of the Draft. Many do. Its not volunteer. Meanwhile, what unit in Vietnam did you serve in?



Fake news and lies.

By the mid to late 60s the Democratic Party was usurped fully by urban elite, far left. Meanwhile, one would be absolutely insane to declare that Democrats didn't continue to be racist afterwards. Are you suggesting racists like Senator Byrd, (D), KKK leader and father figure to Hillary, suddenly switched to being Republicans. Who are you referring to?
I neither fought or served in the military.

Fake news? You're not a trashy or stupid guy, I'm surprised to hear this from you. There can be no doubt that after 1968 white racists were at home in the GOP and increasingly unwelcome in the Democratic party and that white southerners abandoned the Democratic party for the Republicans. Thus the enthusiasm among modern Republicans for the unapologetically racist Trump. Pointing out a couple of racist Democrats doesn't change that.

And as a (retired) trade unionist and union activist I consider your urban elites far to the right of trade unionists; I'm the ******* leftist here. Christ, I wish the buggers were as far to the left as you think.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,749
USA
I neither fought or served in the military.

Fake news? You're not a trashy or stupid guy, I'm surprised to hear this from you. There can be no doubt that after 1968 white racists were at home in the GOP and increasingly unwelcome in the Democratic party and that white southerners abandoned the Democratic party for the Republicans. Thus the enthusiasm among modern Republicans for the unapologetically racist Trump. Pointing out a couple of racist Democrats doesn't change that.

And as a (retired) trade unionist and union activist I consider your urban elites far to the right of trade unionists; I'm the ******* leftist here. Christ, I wish the buggers were as far to the left as you think.
As the " ******* leftist" it doesn't surprise me at all that you will call out everyone but your own comrades for being racist. That's just how modern politics work.

As for this "shift" you're referring to, its just a lie. A "talking point" endlessly repeated because ignorant people believe it.

Funny how you'll instantly bring up racism as the reason for switching parties, but you'll not address that a whole lot of Americans think socialism/marxism is evil, no matter how much you might like it, and when the Democratic party shifted harder left more and more since FDR, it turned off a lot of voters. No, it can't be that, its just racism! Or how about each party's stance in line with Christian Right . Oh wait, you forgot about them! But they don't matter in the Bible Belt, only race does. Then you casually forgot the major ideological shift of the Democratic party away from its historic roots as the party championing state's rights, to one of collectivist, federalism, and welfare state, with high taxes, big govt. But that doesn't matter at all, right? Only a racist fool cares about such! You forgot the differences on Foreign Policy, when previously Democrats were pro-intervention, and suddenly in the mid 60s they weren't. They were Doves. Do you think Joe Sixpack from the South was on board with that? Well, he was a racist, right? What does his opinion matter? Was he cool when snot nose college kids were burning down the bar districts in university towns while waving the flags of the Vietcong or the Hammer and Sickle? Nope, doesn't matter. Only racism matters. How about hippy culture, which the Democrats embraced? You think that might have repulsed individuals who lived in the Bible Belt? Why did you ignore all the Yellow Dog Democrats of the South who never left the Democratic Party, ever, and we just as racist as ever (like Byrd, Hillary Clinton's mentor). Why not address that elephant in the room, all those powerful Southern Democratic Senators and Congressmen kept getting elected somehow... How did two southern presidents (from Georgia and Arkansas) get elected? What part of race did that play? Did white southerners just forget to vote all those times?

The political strategy and ideology of your party is divide and conquer, and they use identity politics to do it. So everyone who is Republic is racist. But all the racist ass democrats aren't, because they can't be, because they're on your team and you're not allowed to call them out. Any racism they have is forgivable, because either they're championing the People while being racist (like LBJ, Byrd, Hillary Clinton, who is rather notoriously racist), or they're "People of Color," who apparently now aren't allowed to be labeled as racist even when they say or write incredibly racist things.
 

Edratman

Forum Staff
Feb 2009
6,702
Eastern PA
Jews are similar, many are very racist, even today, their use of the word "shvartze" is extremely prevalent, even today, as few know what it means (pejorative word for Black, in Yiddish).

And many blacks hate whites, and in some cities in the SW and W, their rivalry and hatred with Latinos is legendary, holy crap do they hate one another solely based on race. I don't buy the make believe definition that one can't be racist unless they have racial privilege to oppress others (meaning, only whites).

And Asians. They hate everyone. Probably the most racist people I've ever met in my life were Japanese. I think Hawaiians would be a close second. Guess who those groups in America vote primarily? Not Republican...
As the " ******* leftist" it doesn't surprise me at all that you will call out everyone but your own comrades for being racist. That's just how modern politics work.



The political strategy and ideology of your party is divide and conquer, and they use identity politics to do it. So everyone who is Republic is racist. But all the racist ass democrats aren't, because they can't be, because they're on your team and you're not allowed to call them out. Any racism they have is forgivable, because either they're championing the People while being racist (like LBJ, Byrd, Hillary Clinton, who is rather notoriously racist), or they're "People of Color," who apparently now aren't allowed to be labeled as racist even when they say or write incredibly racist things.
This is a history forum, not a site to discuss current politics.

This is also a warning. Casting aspersions and slurs on multiple ethnic groups in a single post is far beyond acceptable at Historum.
 
Status
Closed