Why didn't the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown result in a domino effect and bring down the government?

Jul 2019
802
New Jersey
usually those holding negative opinions of china turn historical threads into current or political threads.
It's not us opponents of the PRC who are obsessively propagandizing our views. Look in a mirror. It's the people who never post anywhere but to defend the CCP who turn every conversation in to this same mindless exercise.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,626
China
It's the people who never post anywhere but to defend the CCP who turn every conversation in to this same mindless exercise.
you mean supporting ccp in those cases you are against is a mindless exercise?

you are supposed to apologize in a timely response, because apparently you are trying to limit the free speech in a name called "mindless". your assertion is based on your prejudiced standpoint that only being against ccp is rightful, but not looking into any practical or essential argument.

i must mention similar terms have also been used in this forum, for one example, "low quality"

"mindless" or "low quality" only happens when people being fed by secondary sources, one sided sources and lacking the ability or interest to seek out more sources on his/her own effort, and then post without evidences and/or reasoning.

who fits those?
 
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Jul 2019
802
New Jersey
you mean supporting ccp in those cases you are against is a mindless exercise?
No, but dismissing the protesters' legitimate grievances due to the violent actions of a few is as sloppy an argument as you can get. And that's basically what all of these posts boil down to - because the protesters are rude and/or violent their grievances should be dismissed wholesale. That's mindless.

you are supposed to apologize in a timely response, because apparently you are trying to limit the free speech in a name called "mindless".
You're allowed to say what you want. I can criticize it. That's free speech in action.

i must mention similar terms have also been used, for one example, "low quality"

"mindless" or "low quality" only happens when people being fed by secondary sources, one sided sources and lacking the ability or interest to seek out more sources on his/her own effort, and then post without evidences and/or reasoning.

who fits those?
The people claiming, with zero evidence, that the evil west has caused these protests, and that the tens of thousands of protesters aren't independent, thinking human beings but simply brainwashed western tools?
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,626
China
No, but dismissing the protesters' legitimate grievances due to the violent actions of a few is as sloppy an argument as you can get. And that's basically what all of these posts boil down to - because the protesters are rude and/or violent their grievances should be dismissed wholesale. That's mindless.
it is not about any protest's problem.

it is about the argument whether the protest such as in hk is current and political.

current and political threads, are not supposed in this current sub-forum.

discussing appropriate threads in proper sub-forums is not dismissing anything, just plainly, a wish that threads be discussed more properly

several other points should be made
1. until evidences and reasoning are shown, protester's demands are neither legitimate or non-legitimate.
one cannot confuse with a false argument that anything be demanded by protesters is legitimate.
2. violence is just violence. according to laws violence must be handled accordingly, otherwise, what is a law?


You're allowed to say what you want. i can criticize it. That's free speech in action.
free speech is not just about who can say words, who cannot.
the mouth and plica vocalis are grown with (almost) any people, they are movable and make speech without the authorization from anyone (include oneself)

free speech is also about voices being properly heard. prejudice that one kind of voice is being inferior because of holding a specific view point, but refused or unable to be shown with evidence about why inferior, is the common strategy to poison the freedom of speech.

you are criticizing posts being "mindless", that is insult, personally, and without any reasoning.
you are limiting my freedom!


The people claiming, with zero evidence, that the evil west has caused these protests, and that the tens of thousands of protesters aren't independent, thinking human beings but simply brainwashed western tools?
you are not making any criticizes that could be referred or quoted onto any specific post. a criticism irrelevant to the discussion and hence not worthy to be answered
 
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Jul 2019
802
New Jersey
@heylouis

I will apologize for my use of the term mindless. I very strongly disagree with your view but it is not my intention to personally insult you or hurt your feelings. I am sorry. However, I am not 'limiting' you in any way - just vigorously engaging with you.

you are not making any criticizes that could not be referred or quoted onto any specific post. a criticism irrelevant to the discussion and hence not worthy to be answered
I'm not going to go back and excavate them, but there have been countless posts made (including one in this thread) asserting that these protests are a western creation. That is a groundless accusation, and it presumes that the Hong Kong protesters don't have minds of their own to protest without western 'instigation'.

Ultimately, I was pointing out in my original post that the first person to mention the Hong Kong protests in this thread was a supporter of the CCP, not of the protests.
 

MG1962a

Ad Honorem
Mar 2019
2,163
Kansas
"mindless" or "low quality" only happens when people being fed by secondary sources, one sided sources and lacking the ability or interest to seek out more sources on his/her own effort, and then post without evidences and/or reasoning.
And it is one of the reasons we should seek as many sources as we can, then come to our own decisions about the veracity of a political movement. Western media has fallen into a habit of editorializing as much as reporting. I personally don't need that. I have been around long enough to tell when I am being fed a line

Back to the topic at hand. My concerns about the 89 protests is not if the protesters had a point, or the government was miss represented in its aims. My concern was the sheer brutality used to break it up

The Chinese governments first show of force was the army with instructions to end it by any means available. That quiet simply was an over reaction.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,626
China
I will apologize for my use of the term mindless. I very strongly disagree with your view but it is not my intention to personally insult you or hurt your feelings. I am sorry. However, I am not 'limiting' you in any way - just vigorously engaging with you.
apologize taken.
although i have reasonable clues that if i had not propose the improper talking about the argument being mindless will certainly lead to limitations of speech, it is now fine.
I'm not going to go back and excavate them, but there have been countless posts made (including one in this thread) asserting that these protests are a western creation.
That is a groundless accusation, and it presumes that the Hong Kong protesters don't have minds of their own to protest without western 'instigation'.
i guess you are talking about this:

CIA is definitely behind both incidents, as well as many similar riots across the world.
which i partially agree.

western governments are behind violent incidents in the world, whether CIA is the only or major one is another problem to be answered by US government.

a list:
1. CIA funded the tibet rebellion
2. CIA created the "free asia" radio. a media is not necessarily a tool of inciting, however, when an intelligence created a radio, you must be cautious.
3. CIA funded taliban
4. CIA is known to connect with NED, which is now the major finical supporter of global "democratic movements", including that in hk
5. former CIA head, current Secretary of State is known to have connections with the hk protesters in person.
6. US government officials work in hk seen in connection with hk protesters in person and privately, although it is exposed they were discussing about arranging protests. thinking about if ccp personnel in 1992's los angeles protest.
....

those should be common sense.

Ultimately, I was pointing out in my original post that the first person to mention the Hong Kong protests in this thread was a supporter of the CCP, not of the protests.

dividing people as "supporter" of someone, not "supporter" of other one, clearly is an stereotyped effort, and normally leads to limitations of free speech. checking the thread, i see the hk poster suphen is mentioning hk for comparison, but not using hk as a major body of discussion. however, #23 by prashanth is only about hk. i believe you saw the difference since you reacted to the post previously
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,626
China
The Chinese governments first show of force was the army with instructions to end it by any means available. That quiet simply was an over reaction.
you imply there should be a temporal order of forces being used, and you claim army was firstly used.

the later is a false claim, at least in the april of the year, the police's effort to maintain social order was broken by protester multiple times, for example, breaking into the great hall of people on 22nd of april
 
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MG1962a

Ad Honorem
Mar 2019
2,163
Kansas
you imply there should be a temporal order of forces being used, and you claim army was firstly used.

the later is a false claim, at least in the april of the year, the police's effort to maintain social order was broken by protester multiple times, for example, breaking into the great hall of people on 22nd of april
Three students. Attempting to attend Hu's funeral
 
Nov 2019
53
Solar System
Ironically, the ones shouting "freedom and democracy" the loudest are the ones that always try to force their opinion onto others. And if others don't agree, they either verbally abuse others, calling names such as "mindless" or "fifty-cents army", or even worse, beating them up or burning them alive, like what those masked rioters did "in the name of democracy".

Just like what heylouis said in his signature, yes we have a wall on the Internet, but you guys have a wall around your heart, and it's worse than our wall.