Why didn't Vichy France restore the French monarchy?
- Thread starter Futurist
- Start date
Futurist
Ad Honoris
- May 2014
- 22,750
- SoCal
How can anyone be a Petainist nowadays considering the role of the Petain regime in deporting a quarter of France's Jews to their deaths? The Petain regime wasn't actually obligated to do this (AFAIK, the 1940 armistice agreement between France and Germany does not say anything about Jewish deportations) and yet it nevertheless did this.
- Nov 2010
- 1,290
- Bordeaux
Indeed, in some cases, the Vichy government exceeded Germany's demands in a calculated attempt to please the occupiers.How can anyone be a Petainist nowadays considering the role of the Petain regime in deporting a quarter of France's Jews to their deaths? The Petain regime wasn't actually obligated to do this (AFAIK, the 1940 armistice agreement between France and Germany does not say anything about Jewish deportations) and yet it nevertheless did this.
They did so when arresting foreign jews, who were the first victims of Pétain's anti-semitic policy.
On the other hand , more than 90% of French jews survived, the highest propertion in all occupied Europe.
Even though the deportation of Jews wasn't part of the Armistice deal, the German demands came later.
The infamous "Rafle du Velodrôme d'Hiver" in 1942 was a disappointment for the Germans who officially complained to the Vichy authorities, as the number of people actually arrested was far smaller than what the Germans had demanded and expected.
While some Vichy officials and police were eager to get rid of Jews, many others stalled, passed on information, warned people etc, which allowed the vast majority of French Jews to survive the war.
As for Pétainist people, hard to say, but some still believe he was a hero an did a good job at protecting France, out of hatred for socialism, foreigners, or jews or parliamentary democracy, or because of idealised fantasies about the past, lack of information, refusal to accept reality and facts about Pétain and his regime, etc
The Pétain years have been a complete mess for 80 years now, still dividing people whenever the subject comes up.
- Jul 2019
- 848
- New Jersey
- Nov 2010
- 1,290
- Bordeaux
Indeed it is, the FN crowd tends to believe and perpetuate all the myths created by Vichy, such as the ones I mentioned in a previous post in this thread.
But the difference between France and Poland or Japan is that no French politician in power has ever denied the truth about the implication of the Vichy government in the deportation of Jews or atrocities committed by the state during WW2. President Chirac actually made a formal, official acknowledgement and apology about 20 years ago.
Unfortunately, the perpetuation of silly myths is not restricted to the FN sympathisers.
Some years ago, a French conservative Prime Minister lambasted the Socialist Party at the National Assembly using the myth of Socialism being responsible for France's defeat in 1940. Was it sheer stupidity, ignorance or plain disingenuity, I do not know, but still, that was an utterly ridiculous statement to make in the 2000s ...
sparky
Ad Honorem
- Jan 2017
- 5,388
- Sydney
Some point on the deportation of Jews
the French tended to protect French Jews , foreigners were not so welcome ,
they were seen as strangers and rabble to be send back to wherever they came from
Jew of foreign origins were those targeted for expulsion out of France during the Great Vel d'Hiv raffle
French Jews were hidden routinely , as right wing as Jean Medecin ,the Petainist mayor of Nice protected all the local Jews
this was the same as Denmark and other place ,
their Jewish citizens had sympathy and help foreigners didn't necessary have
for a long time the dead Jews of WW2 of the soviet union were tabulated as Soviet casualties not by ethnic groups
this is the crux of the problem is Jewish identity above a citizens identity or vice versa
the French tended to protect French Jews , foreigners were not so welcome ,
they were seen as strangers and rabble to be send back to wherever they came from
Jew of foreign origins were those targeted for expulsion out of France during the Great Vel d'Hiv raffle
French Jews were hidden routinely , as right wing as Jean Medecin ,the Petainist mayor of Nice protected all the local Jews
this was the same as Denmark and other place ,
their Jewish citizens had sympathy and help foreigners didn't necessary have
for a long time the dead Jews of WW2 of the soviet union were tabulated as Soviet casualties not by ethnic groups
this is the crux of the problem is Jewish identity above a citizens identity or vice versa
notgivenaway
Ad Honorem
- Jun 2015
- 5,787
- UK
Depends. Like the army it was a hold-out for all kinds of dissenters who was unhappy with how France had developed effectively since 1789 – republicanism, secularism, democracy and all the rest. They represented a minority that were so far the clear losers in history The defeat of France by Germany in 1940 gave them an unexpected shot at real power that would never have come their way under any normal circumstances. From a French perspective WWII was also very much a conflict over what KIND of France there would be after the war.
The Nazi German policies of culture had a pan-European ambition. They had all kinds of meetings and cultural exchanges. (Weirdly the German Nazis were afraid that while they might win the war, the Italians being mostly useless, once the war was won it could concievably be the Italians who would culturally dominate the peace of the 1000 Year Reich.) They stressed that all nations should cultivate their own, unique (supposedly) national traits. Even with the Vichyists in charge the French always got stick from the Nazis for dragging out something too "universalist", not sufficiently parochial, limited and "French".
Isleifson
Ad Honorem
- Aug 2013
- 4,122
- Lorraine tudesque
Vichy had all kind's of supporter : from the basic Vichyist believing the story of the shield (Pétain) and the sword (de Gaulle) to the monarchist, fascist, right wing catholics, Automist from Brittany and much more.
The Nazi were certainly not pan - European : they were far to racist for that.
That's what the few real French Nazi like Saint - Loup always complained about.
en.wikipedia.org
The Nazi were certainly not pan - European : they were far to racist for that.
That's what the few real French Nazi like Saint - Loup always complained about.
Marc Augier - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org