Why didn't Vichy France restore the French monarchy?

Dec 2011
1,369
Belgium
Vichy had all kind's of supporter : from the basic Vichyist believing the story of the shield (Pétain) and the sword (de Gaulle) to the monarchist, fascist, right wing catholics, Automist from Brittany and much more.

The Nazi were certainly not pan - European : they were far to racist for that.

That's what the few real French Nazi like Saint - Loup always complained about.

Isleifson, you are able to bring always something new for me. Thank you.
Kind regards, Paul.
 
Nov 2010
1,290
Bordeaux
the French tended to protect French Jews , foreigners were not so welcome ,
they were seen as strangers and rabble to be send back to wherever they came from
Jew of foreign origins were those targeted for expulsion out of France during the Great Vel d'Hiv raffle
and yet, the rafle wasn't as "successful" as the Germans had expected, which means that even if French jews were protected better, foreign jews weren't served up to the Germans as eagerly as you seem to suggest.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,750
SoCal
Indeed, in some cases, the Vichy government exceeded Germany's demands in a calculated attempt to please the occupiers.
They did so when arresting foreign jews, who were the first victims of Pétain's anti-semitic policy.

On the other hand , more than 90% of French jews survived, the highest propertion in all occupied Europe.
Even though the deportation of Jews wasn't part of the Armistice deal, the German demands came later.
The infamous "Rafle du Velodrôme d'Hiver" in 1942 was a disappointment for the Germans who officially complained to the Vichy authorities, as the number of people actually arrested was far smaller than what the Germans had demanded and expected.
While some Vichy officials and police were eager to get rid of Jews, many others stalled, passed on information, warned people etc, which allowed the vast majority of French Jews to survive the war.

As for Pétainist people, hard to say, but some still believe he was a hero an did a good job at protecting France, out of hatred for socialism, foreigners, or jews or parliamentary democracy, or because of idealised fantasies about the past, lack of information, refusal to accept reality and facts about Pétain and his regime, etc
The Pétain years have been a complete mess for 80 years now, still dividing people whenever the subject comes up.
For what it's worth, I believe that countries such as Denmark and Finland actually protected all (or almost all) of their Jews as opposed to limiting their protection to native Jews. In my honest opinion, Vichy France should have probably resisted Nazi demands to deport any of its Jewish population and instead told the Germans to do the job themselves if they really wanted to get it done. Of course, I would have also made alternative offers to the Nazis--such as offering a lot of young French people for forced labor in Germany. That way, at least there could be reasonable certainty that they are not going to get slaughtered by the Nazis--unlike any Jews whom Vichy would have decided to give up to the Nazis. The "sending a lot of young French people for forced labor in Germany" part would, of course, be done exclusively to reduce Nazi pressure in regards to deporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps and Nazi death camps. It would certainly not be done out of a sadistic desire to force young French people to engage in forced labor on behalf of the Nazi cause.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,390
Sydney
French were not "eager " to have foreigner deported but were of course more concerned for fellow compatriots
neither Denmark or Finland had large non-national group of people

Vichy had nothing to do with the occupied Zone of all of northern France and the Atlantic coast , there the Germans ruled
Petain was quite keen on shooting Communists , exceeding Germany request

the STO , Compulsory labor Service service was a plan to get the 1.8 million of french prisoner of war exchanged for temporary young workers
since quite a few of those soldiers were young men , in many cases they were told they were not prisoner anymore
but would remain in the same place , doing the same work as " volunteers "
the only change was that their old French Army uniform got the letters KG removed from their back
 
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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,930
For what it's worth, I believe that countries such as Denmark and Finland actually protected all (or almost all) of their Jews as opposed to limiting their protection to native Jews.
Yes, that would have been preferable.

It is otoh a bit unfair as a comparison. When the Nazis started their persecution of Germans Jews, one option for them was to leave Germany. By the start of the war about half of them had already left. Where did they go? France, mostly. And the same was true for Jews of other nationalities. France looked like the safest bet. And unlike many other smaller countries styling themselves as humanitarians, like Sweden and Switzerland, the French actually let the Jews in. The Jews did not, however, go to Denmark of Finland either, so they only really had to contend with their respective established national Jewish community.

So we really have no evidence the Finns or Danes would have behaved any better than the French, since they weren't put on the spot in the same way.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,636
Las Vegas, NV USA
Well Louis 14, 15 and 16 managed to bankrupt France over the course of a century. Then the man who saved the French Revolution crowned himself emperor and eventually went down in defeat. The weak monarchies that followed ended with another revolution in 1848. Then Nap 3 led France to defeat and humiliation in 1870-71. So maybe France learned its lesson. They like republics so much that they had three of them since 1871.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,750
SoCal
Yes, that would have been preferable.

It is otoh a bit unfair as a comparison. When the Nazis started their persecution of Germans Jews, one option for them was to leave Germany. By the start of the war about half of them had already left. Where did they go? France, mostly. And the same was true for Jews of other nationalities. France looked like the safest bet. And unlike many other smaller countries styling themselves as humanitarians, like Sweden and Switzerland, the French actually let the Jews in. The Jews did not, however, go to Denmark of Finland either, so they only really had to contend with their respective established national Jewish community.

So we really have no evidence the Finns or Danes would have behaved any better than the French, since they weren't put on the spot in the same way.
Didn't Finland and Denmark both receive some Jewish immigrants and refugees in the early 20th century, though?

Well Louis 14, 15 and 16 managed to bankrupt France over the course of a century. Then the man who saved the French Revolution crowned himself emperor and eventually went down in defeat. The weak monarchies that followed ended with another revolution in 1848. Then Nap 3 led France to defeat and humiliation in 1870-71. So maybe France learned its lesson. They like republics so much that they had three of them since 1871.
The interesting thing, of course, is that an early death for Henri, Count of Chambord might have very well resulted in the restoration of the French monarchy in the early 1870s.
 
Dec 2011
1,369
Belgium
For what it's worth, I believe that countries such as Denmark and Finland actually protected all (or almost all) of their Jews as opposed to limiting their protection to native Jews. In my honest opinion, Vichy France should have probably resisted Nazi demands to deport any of its Jewish population and instead told the Germans to do the job themselves if they really wanted to get it done. Of course, I would have also made alternative offers to the Nazis--such as offering a lot of young French people for forced labor in Germany. That way, at least there could be reasonable certainty that they are not going to get slaughtered by the Nazis--unlike any Jews whom Vichy would have decided to give up to the Nazis. The "sending a lot of young French people for forced labor in Germany" part would, of course, be done exclusively to reduce Nazi pressure in regards to deporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps and Nazi death camps. It would certainly not be done out of a sadistic desire to force young French people to engage in forced labor on behalf of the Nazi cause.
Futurist,

I have in the time on French fora contributed a lot and in depth about for instance the difference in Holocaust victims between France and for instance Belgium, The Netherlands and yes Denmark. Also about the demand of the Polish government to France for the exceed of Polish farmers and especially the Jewish population, to settle in Madagascar. Among others with a French "Pétainist".
But perhaps can you make a new thread about France and the Holocaust, as I find this thread is about French royalists.

Kind regards, Paul.