Why do we still call Mesopotamia the "cradle of civilization"?

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,150
Lisbon, Portugal
again just demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about and don't bother to do the slightest bit of research. Neolithic Anatolians are one of the major ancestral populations of modern Europeans. Southern Europeans are predominantly of Neolithic Anatolian descent, and they are the most similar to Neolithic Anatołians.
Modern, and Iron age Southern Europeans were not predominantly of Neolithic Anatolian descent. They were indeed like that during the Neolithic period and beginning of civilization around the Mediterranean region, but since the arrival of Indo-European languages and other migrations that occurred throughout millennia, the chunk of Neolithic Anatolian ancestry has been slightly diminishing.
Of course, Neolithic Anatolian ancestry still probably composes a considerable amount (almost half) of the ancestry of southern Europeans, but it's not the predominant ancestry component.

Besides, Middle Eastern and Caucasian populations also exhibit a lot of Neolithic Anatolian ancestry as well.
 
And Ario calling anyone "Anti-European" just because someone who trys to highlight the early influences Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians has on early Greece.
At this point I don't know if I should even bother, I know that you will dismiss everything that contradicts your point of view and dance around any argument presented. He calls you Anti-European because you are, no one is denying early influences of Egypt and the''Middle East'' on Greece, but you're inflating them way out of proportion and making it look like all the Greeks ever had was due to Egyptians.

Interesting how you bring up my old posts regarding the ascension of Western Europe and comments regarding Ancient Greece learning from Near Easterners and Egyptians and claiming me to be biased and having an agenda on Europeans when I have not suggested such a thing.
Those posts are hardly old, the oldest ones I looked at were from the African colonisation thread, barely 1 month old. The thread I have participated in, the Mongol one, isn't even a month old. You have never suggested such a thing? What's this then?

Why was Africa so underdeveloped before colonization?

''Born out of the grace by Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Babylonian mathematics......''

So you have never suggested such a thing?

I looked into his sources he provided and some of them cites Egyptian and Levantine influence on the Minoans and tries to prove how Europe is "older" than Egypt, and none of his sources prove that Europe is "older" than Egypt. I never overrated Egyptian influence on Greek civilization, but it's a historical fact that Egyptians in part, together with the early Near East set the stepping stone for Ancient Greek civilization.
Read the paragraph above.

If we're being honest, and you even bothered looking at much older threads of mine and not threads I made recently this year and using them to accuse me of being somehow "Anti-European", I have made threads highlighting the modern day achievements of Western Europe and questioning the factors of what led to Western Europe to create advance technology and science as well as politics and economics. And if we're going to bring up my old thread on the whole Mongol thing, it is a fact that Western Europe had a head start in becoming the center of civilization due to the Mongols setting the chain of events that lead to Western Europe's ascension (btw, we're not bringing that thread up, else it will derail the entire topic at hand right now). I never for one tried to take away the achievements of Europe. I acknowledge the contributions of all societies and I know that all societies/civilizations has dark pasts. But we cannot deny the contributions that early non-European civilizations had on Europe.
I never look at posts older than about a year or so because I know it's possible for someone to change their mind, making the information outdated. However since you insisted on me looking at your older threads I found this one.

Was Ancient Greece essentially a Middle Eastern civilization?

You have made others that talk about achievements of Europeans but that doesn't excuse your bias that you present now.

You say we are not bringing the Mongol thread up and then proceed to use the same argument you used there, I can only tell you to re-read it and see how it ended, so maybe you will think twice when claiming that as ''fact''.

We cannot deny contributions but we can't overrate them either, as you seem to do with Egypt.

I never claimed that Greece gained most of their civilization from Egyptian influences. But it's a fact that early Egypt and Near East influenced the cultural aspects, mathematical and early scientific knowledge, alphabet and even influences on Greek politics and philosophy in early Greeks. Of course they built off of what they learned, made it uniquely Greek and eventually surpassed their Near Eastern and Egyptian predecessors, but they were still the foundation for Greek civilization, the same as how Greeks laid the foundations for most of Europe.
Already addressed in the rest of this post, you also seem to have changed your mind somewhat regarding Greece being born ''out of grace by Babylonian and Egyptian mathematics.''
 
Aug 2018
494
london
Modern, and Iron age Southern Europeans were not predominantly of Neolithic Anatolian descent. They were indeed like that during the Neolithic period and beginning of civilization around the Mediterranean region, but since the arrival of Indo-European languages and other migrations that occurred throughout millennia, the chunk of Neolithic Anatolian ancestry has been slightly diminishing.
Of course, Neolithic Anatolian ancestry still probably composes a considerable amount (almost half) of the ancestry of southern Europeans, but it's not the predominant ancestry component.

Besides, Middle Eastern and Caucasian populations also exhibit a lot of Neolithic Anatolian ancestry as well.
I sent you a private message.
 
Dec 2015
247
NYC
Can you stop lying please? You obviously have an extreme anti-european bias.. And you don't know anything about European history, you have never bothered to study it, you have no interest in it.. you are only interested in trying to belittle, denigrate and deny european history and accomplishments, that's all.
Throw ad-homimen attacks at me how much you want, just because I have an opinion on European history that you find to be "negative" or don't agree with you view on Europeans.
 
Dec 2015
247
NYC
again just demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about and don't bother to do the slightest bit of research. Neolithic Anatolians are one of the major ancestral populations of modern Europeans. Southern Europeans are predominantly of Neolithic Anatolian descent, and they are the most similar to Neolithic Anatołians.
Most Southern Europeans are predominantly indigenous Europeans mixed with the Neolithic Anatonians and the Indo-Europeans who came from the steppes.
 
Dec 2015
247
NYC
The Runic alphabet is a derivation of the Old Italic scripts of antiquity, and the Gothic alphabet is basically Greek alphabet written in capital letters and with some new letters to account for specific Germanic phonology that doesn't exist in Greek. I think you already know this, right?
Hate to be the reductionist here, but most European alphabets ultimately derive from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Latin (and variations use in Germanic languages) and Greek alphabets both derive from Phoenicians alphabets, which in turn derives from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Just wanted to mention this for the heck of it.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,150
Lisbon, Portugal
Hate to be the reductionist here, but most European alphabets ultimately derive from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Latin (and variations use in Germanic languages) and Greek alphabets both derive from Phoenicians alphabets, which in turn derives from Egyptian hieroglyphics. Just wanted to mention this for the heck of it.
If you want me to be even more reductionist, almost half of the worlds scripts ultimately derive from Egyptian hieroglyphs.
 
Dec 2015
247
NYC
At this point I don't know if I should even bother, I know that you will dismiss everything that contradicts your point of view and dance around any argument presented. He calls you Anti-European because you are, no one is denying early influences of Egypt and the''Middle East'' on Greece, but you're inflating them way out of proportion and making it look like all the Greeks ever had was due to Egyptians.
How do i "dismiss" opposing views? It's called arguing over things you disagree with. Also, I never stated that all the Greeks ever had was due to Egyptians. Both Greeks and Egyptians are different people and different cultures, but knowledge-wise, Egyptians together with those from Mesopotamia laid the blueprints of knowledge for Greeks to learn from and innovate. And of course Greeks made their own inventions and ideas and surpassed the civilizations of the Eastern Mediterranean, but you cannot deny the contributions of the older civilizations to Greeks. Without the older civilizations, Greeks would never be the same. I'm simply just highlighting it. I'm not making some exaggeration. It is what it is.


Those posts are hardly old, the oldest ones I looked at were from the African colonisation thread, barely 1 month old. The thread I have participated in, the Mongol one, isn't even a month old. You have never suggested such a thing? What's this then?

Why was Africa so underdeveloped before colonization?

''Born out of the grace by Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Babylonian mathematics......''

So you have never suggested such a thing?
I'm talking about much older threads prior to the African colonization one. I have made threads on the advancement Western Europeans made to the world and talked about the reasons and factors.
''Born out of the grace by Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Babylonian mathematics......''
I am mainly talking about Greek Mathematics being "born out of grace" by Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics, which is true. Greeks may have invented a more theoretical approach to mathematics and the first ones who started and laid out the foundations for proof-based mathematics, but it was the Egyptians and Babylonians who laid out the basic mathematics for Greeks. Greek geometry builds off Egyptian trigonometry and the base-60 numerical system that Greeks used to divide the circle by 360 degrees comes from Babylonians.



I never look at posts older than about a year or so because I know it's possible for someone to change their mind, making the information outdated. However since you insisted on me looking at your older threads I found this one.

Was Ancient Greece essentially a Middle Eastern civilization?

You have made others that talk about achievements of Europeans but that doesn't excuse your bias that you present now.

You say we are not bringing the Mongol thread up and then proceed to use the same argument you used there, I can only tell you to re-read it and see how it ended, so maybe you will think twice when claiming that as ''fact''.

We cannot deny contributions but we can't overrate them either, as you seem to do with Egypt.



Already addressed in the rest of this post, you also seem to have changed your mind somewhat regarding Greece being born ''out of grace by Babylonian and Egyptian mathematics.''
The older thread on "Was Ancient Greece essentially a Middle Eastern civilization?", I had a change of heart. It was only because I felt that they had more in common with the Near East than with Europe since Greeks Interacted more than much of Europe (the only area of Europe where Greeks had a connection was in Southern Italy and small city-states in Southern France and Spain). And Greeks never had the concept of "Western" and only considered themselves a Mediterranean people.
But that was a long time ago and had a change of heart.
And speaking about the Mongol thread, I never showed any bias in that thread. I was basically discussing what if the Mongols never existed? Would Western Europe have a head start in world dominance and leading the world in modern science and technology if it weren't for Mongols setting up the chain of events that lead to the Eastern civilizations down to stagnation and ultimately led to Western European powers colonizing much of the world.
I never overrate the contributions of Egyptians and Near Easterners to Greeks. I am simply highlighting it. As I said, they laid out the foundations for Greeks to learn from and innovate. Without them, Greek civilization would never had happen.