Why fascists took references and symbolism from eastern philosophies? Also, why paganism?

Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
I could understand someone claiming he was rabidly anti Jewish. Maybe, we have a different understanding of rabies.

Perhaps, but of course , I don't know; I exaggerated for effect. There is no doubt in my mind that Hitler was anti Christian, having the intent to start his own religion. However, the guy's dead, so I guess we will never know for certain.

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1] Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[3] Ernst Hanfstaengl, a friend from his early days in politics, says Hitler "was to all intents and purposes an atheist by the time I got to know him". However, historians such as Richard Weikart and Alan Bullock doubt the assessment that he was a true atheist, suggesting that despite his dislike of Christianity he still clung to a form of spiritual belief. [4]

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia
 
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Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
4,431
Caribbean
I don't know; I exaggerated for effect.
OK. Some caution is prudent so that the effect of exaggeration is not a new version of history. I have come across a wide variety of opinions on Hitler's spirituality, including atheists with long lists of Hitler quotes that allegedly reflect his Christianity. And then there is that long quote from Franco that supposedly appeared in the newspapers after Hitler disappeared about service to Catholicism.

As to your quoted blurb, I always get a chuckle out of writers who say they find "no evidence" of something without a scope-of-work statement explaining exactly where they looked, what search methods they used, and what level of diligence and care was applied. That would make a claim of - no evidence - a whole bunch more risky.

The whole paragraph generalizes about "Christianity." No one makes notice that in the 400 years between Martin Luther posting his Disputation on the Power of Indulgences (and whose idea was it to call that 95 Theses) and the time that Hitler turned to politics, one of the most significant differences and motivating factor in Western history s whether one was Catholic (a word that means universal)), spiritually and politically, as a self-professed and enforced universal church versus what they called Heretic and others call Protestant (and/or Anglican and/or Baptist).

I already expressed criticism that the thread equated "fascism" with a lower-case "f" only to Nazism and Hitler. And pointed out that if one looked across the broader spectrum of fascism, there is a much more plain connection between Catholicism to: Franco, Mussolini, Fr. Tiso, Pavelic and the Serbian holocaust (which genocided a higher percentage of its 'own citizens' than the Third Reich).

Some leaders are willing to attach themselves to particular religious demonstrations and use those principles as ruling principles, but IMO the Nazi's were purposelessly more mercurial. It was necessary in Germany to unite the Catholics and Protestants in order to make some form of "united Germany," A little before Hitler was born, in the Austro-Prussian war, it was Austria (where Hitler was born) and Bavaria (where Hitler started his politicizing) under the Catholic Hapsburgs versus primarily Protestant Prussia. IMO, in order to get all of that rivalry that went back at least to the Thirty Years' War, under one man's rule, religious differences had to be subverted so the state and the Fuehrer could become the object of worship and loyally (and on Sunday, they could pray with whomever they wanted) .
 
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Oct 2018
7
Belgium
Hi. As I get familiar with the theme of fascists and their critic of liberalism, there's one thing that I quite don't understand. Why the search for understanding of eastern schools of thought, such as buddhism and Laozi? Weren't christian references enough? Also, along some authors that inspired fascists such as Julius Evola, why the interest for the occult and paganism?
I think because many fascists disliked Jews and Christianity has a heavy Jewish pedigree. By contrast, pre-Christian paganism does not. Similarly, if you hold that the Indo-European ancestors of Europeans were from India, then you would borrow symbols from their pre-Christian Eastern faith.
 

Yôḥānān

Ad Honorem
Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
In the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century Europe had seen the rise of republicanism, and a form of republicanism that was strongly anti-clerical and with authoritarian and nationalistic tendencies but which for common and also different reasons start failling accompanied by the rise of authoritarian nationalistic ideas along with alternative spirituality among urban thinkers. Here in Portugal the apointed dictator Salazar who unlike the others came from humble origins in a rural catholic environment and was an academic who never fought in a war rejected paganism and militarism and embraced ruralism and Catholicism instead.
 
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Yôḥānān

Ad Honorem
Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
Understanding the above mentioned republicanism is essential at least to understand what was going on in Mediterranean countries, and also why these authoritarian regimes that emerged from the republican failure were to some extension pro-Catholic but at the same time also catholiceptics. Because they had to some extension been inspired but to some extension were opposed to the said republicanism.
One radical group that had been actively involved promoting republicanism in the 19th and 20th century was the Carbonari.
 
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Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
OK. Some caution is prudent so that the effect of exaggeration is not a new version of history. I have come across a wide variety of opinions on Hitler's spirituality, including atheists with long lists of Hitler quotes that allegedly reflect his Christianity. And then there is that long quote from Franco that supposedly appeared in the newspapers after Hitler disappeared about service to Catholicism.

As to your quoted blurb, I always get a chuckle out of writers who say they find "no evidence" of something without a scope-of-work statement explaining exactly where they looked, what search methods they used, and what level of diligence and care was applied. That would make a claim of - no evidence - a whole bunch more risky.

The whole paragraph generalizes about "Christianity." No one makes notice that in the 400 years between Martin Luther posting his Disputation on the Power of Indulgences (and whose idea was it to call that 95 Theses) and the time that Hitler turned to politics, one of the most significant differences and motivating factor in Western history s whether one was Catholic (a word that means universal)), spiritually and politically, as a self-professed and enforced universal church versus what they called Heretic and others call Protestant (and/or Anglican and/or Baptist).

I already expressed criticism that the thread equated "fascism" with a lower-case "f" only to Nazism and Hitler. And pointed out that if one looked across the broader spectrum of fascism, there is a much more plain connection between Catholicism to: Franco, Mussolini, Fr. Tiso, Pavelic and the Serbian holocaust (which genocided a higher percentage of its 'own citizens' than the Third Reich).

Some leaders are willing to attach themselves to particular religious demonstrations and use those principles as ruling principles, but IMO the Nazi's were purposelessly more mercurial. It was necessary in Germany to unite the Catholics and Protestants in order to make some form of "united Germany," A little before Hitler was born, in the Austro-Prussian war, it was Austria (where Hitler was born) and Bavaria (where Hitler started his politicizing) under the Catholic Hapsburgs versus primarily Protestant Prussia. IMO, in order to get all of that rivalry that went back at least to the Thirty Years' War, under one man's rule, religious differences had to be subverted so the state and the Fuehrer could become the object of worship and loyally (and on Sunday, they could pray with whomever they wanted) .
Obviously far more knowledgeable than I.

On the matter of evidence the burden of proof rest with the person making claim. I made the claim that Hitler was anti Christian. The burden of proof is on me. You need prove nothing. I'm also pretty suer one can't prove a negative proposition. I made the observation that because Hitler is dead, we'll never know the truth. That claim is true,. but a bit dishonest. I think a pretty reasonable conclusion can be reached by looking at what Hitler wrote, said and Did.


I have made the claim that Hitler was anti Christian. I didn't think it necessary to be more precise due to Hitler's ubringing as an Austrian Catholic rather than a Lutheran. I was also under the obviously false impression that Hitler's anti Christian stance was widely accepted by scholars.

I've read ':Here I Stand' so have a basic understanding of the things which pissed off Matin Luther, from the doctrine of indulgences , to celibacy of the clergy to the relatively subtle theological argument over transubstantiation.


It is my understanding that between them, Hitler and Himmler were intentionally creating a religion based on nature worship, teutonic mythology, the occult and the personality of Hitler. Clearly, I need to prove that claim, as it seems to be contentious. Sorry, I don't think I can, so must accept your position. Should have remembered ' common knowledge' is often wrong.

Have nothing further to add on this matter.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
which god? there are many
In the West, there is really only one God for most people, whether you you think he is real or non existent, and that is the God of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). Most westerners either don't believe in any God, or they believe in the God of the Judeo-Christisn-Islam tradition. Most athiest in the west don't bother attacking the reality Krishna, or Shiva, Kali, etc. The Judeo-Christisngod is the god Nietsche meant. It was a given in the West the other gods didn't exist - hiathiest/agnostics didn't believe in any god, and those who did believe in a good just believed in the God of the Bible and Koran.
 
Nov 2018
105
Idaho
1) National Socialism is not Fascism. It has its own history, and it is influenced as much by Stalinism as by Fascism.

2) The Swastika is an Aryan (as in, the meta-group of steppe nomads and their descendents) symbol. Buddhism is a descendent of the NW Indo-Aryan religion (the main contributor to modern 'Hinduism') and this is why Buddhists use the Swastika, and why the Chinese worship Indo-European gods. Though 19th century German anthropology and political mysticism may have very some very unlikely ideas about who and what the ancient Aryans were it is logical for them to use their symbols, believing what they believed. Very likely Buddha was not a historical person, but is a historicized solar deity. The swastika is a sun-wheel.

3) The Fasces and the Eagle were a symbol of Roman Republicanism and imperium (military authority). As a palingenic political ideology the Fascists saw themselves rebirthing their nation, just as the Romans gave birth to it historically. Whether or not they were correct in this is beside the point, because all that matters is how they perceived themselves and the past when answering this. In any case the American liberals and Jacobin lunatics also used the fasces and other Roman terms/symbols (and, indeed, Fascism is the bastard child of Jacobin nationalism) even though the ancient Romans would have found the ideas of equality and individual liberty to be extremely strange. Most people give zero-shits about the past, and just use a distorted form of it to lie to themselves.

4) As with 3 the pagan references are completely in line with palingenic ideology, whether we're talking about the Italian Fascists or the National Socialists. An older, more virile (virtu means 'manliness', not some girl keeping her legs closed, in Latin). Although many National Socialists did not care for paganism (Hitler, for one) it is natural that while searching the past for a more masculine, assertive and volk ideology than the slave religion of Christianity that they would look into Germanic paganism. Of course neopaganism (fascist or not) has almost no connexion to historical paganism, which was a community ritual and not a moral ideology and whose details have been totally lost to us anyway.

5) Hitler was indeed a Christian and a Catholic (as 90+% of all Austrians were), though how devout he was is impossible to prove. Like most people of his age (and today) politics was his religion, and his supernatural beliefs were subordinate to his political ideology.
 
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Nov 2018
105
Idaho
Also, the idea of Buddhism being some especially enlightened and tolerant religion is inane nonsense. Buddhism is full of superstitious nonsense, and has about 600 times the number of Hells that Christianity does. If anything east-Asian countries are less keen on religious belief (faith) in general, this has nothing to do with Buddhism. Mon Buddhism (the Tibetan kind) was a militant feudal ideology that places absolute power and truth in the hands of a monastic warlord. People who make these claims about Buddhism should be deported to 14th century Tibet to live in the agricultural slavery that was the lot of almost everyone, or the military slavery (and enforced celibacy, making homosexual rape extremely common among monks - Buddhism is often less tolerant of sexuality and hedonism than Christianitys fanatic cults) which the facts of Buddhism bear out. Or the conquering, mass-mudering, thieving military despot Ashoka. Whenever normie westerners open their mouth about Buddhism nothing comes out but imbecilic drivel.