Why France did not insist occupying natural borders of Frannce and try to annex Rhineland in 1945 ?

Jun 2017
2,512
Connecticut
#32
Germany did not seem like a threat either after Paris Peace Conferance in 1919 , 20 years later they curb stomped France. East Prussia was full of Germans too.
1945 is a very different context. France did forsee Germany as a threat due to demographic issues where France's population would be considerably smaller than Germany's and this was why the French were so brutal to the Germans, so they could keep the Germans down and artificially replace their allies who had been necessary to defeat her. The other great powers in 1919 also wanted nothing to do with conflict in Europe, Russia was in turmoil, the UK and US were disengaging, Italy was very very angry about what they felt was being tricked into a bloody so the role of world policemen fell to the French who wanted to prevent the Germans from getting revenge.

Fast forward to 1945, France was defeated by Germany and is only a great power at the invitation of the other winners who this time are very assertively stepping into the role of world policemen(USA and Russia were nowhere to be found in the aftermath of WWI). There is no expectation of France fighting Germany alone. Germany is also literally being divided into four pieces one of which is being run by the the French which combined with their massive wartime losses neutralize Germany as a threat. Even if the Germans had somehow managed to recover, their main target of revenge would naturally be the Soviets not the French. Alsace and Lorraine are secure, France has a veto proof UN Security council seat, France gets a German occupation piece small as it might be given the circumstances this is quite a positive outcome for the French. France's millenia long supremacy on the European continent is over, done with and not coming back and this is clear enough in 1945 to not try to fight the inevitable(which in 1919 was the policy). France did however seek to maintain her colonial empire which was a relatively realistic goal having bloody wars in Algeria and Vietnam. Anyhow the Suez Canal incident showed that France and even the UK's power to act affirmatively exert influence without superpower support(as opposed to Vietnam for example) was gone and unlike in the UK where the EC allowed them to maintain the delusion they'd defeated Hitler and were a third superpower, I think the French were probably well aware of this. They did end up acquiring nuclear weapons technically making them untouchable though so it's not like they gave up on security.

East Prussia's different, it has a warm water port in the North that the Russians didn't have and the fact Prussia created Germany and created their militaristic culture(not that this culture was responsible for WWII) gave them a symbolic excuse to take it that no one was going to object to because if Stalin said Prussia should be conquered and never rise again doubt someone would say, "that's not democratic or that's not national self determination". Soviets lost more in WWII than almost any faction in human history had in any war and if the Soviets were going to demand a war prize, Prussia would be the one they were least willing to object too. Prussia isn't Berlin, it was just the home of the old German aristocracy who in the eyes of both the UK and the Americans had turned the Germans into a threat. No one was going to fight the Soviets over the fate of the German aristocracy's estates.
 
Apr 2017
95
Cologne
#33
(...) why France did not occupy and annex Rhinelands permenantly (like Ferdinand Foch wished in 1918) at the end of war in 1945 ?
And that was the moment when the thread turned into a musical:

Because we were the inhabitants of Trizonesia....
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


We do have maids with fiery wild natures.
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


We are no ma-an - eaters, but we ki-iss for that much better...

We are the inhabitants of Trizonesia..
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


And you want to read up on that, specifically the part Adenauer says at the bottom. And to get the full picture - listen to what they stood up to.
Don't think that is popular knowledge if I see that even on wiki they only have that in English and German.

What I'm wondering is if the Netherlands would have had enough people to settle all of this Lebensraum if it would have actually acquired it.

Thoughts?
Jo, jo, dat.

(That is Ripuarian. Translation: Yes, yes, this)

Now back to -Merdiolu... from Turkey! We got a lot of Turkish boys on our streets who say, they are now so and so many and want to take us over.
To them we say, too: Jo, jo, dat.
We say this here since 2000 years - even to Caesar as he said - you can not hold that land only because you stole it from some local tribes.
And the Prussians tried to breed us out. Take a guess what we said to them?
We are here the Frankish culture zone, that name does not come from nowhere.

But to turn that musical back to a threat - sorry yarn - uh- I mean thread:

Adenauer, the first cancellor, made a 180 degree turn from a seperatist to a federalist as he came into office.
He is from the Rhineland region. That is why he got the support he got. Because a seperatist is everything but no nationalist (like in national socialist), like half of the German government.

The state itself Nortrhine-Westphalia is a British product that belonged to the British occupation zone, based on Prussia.

Prussia and England shared up to WWI a common anti-French view. With the WWI that broke apart – because the Prussian side was extinct.
That resulted into seperation movements similar to the unification movements in Northern Ireland in the 1920s.
The climax was the short founding of the Rhineland Republic – supported by France, but for the same reasons declined by Britain.
By that the Germans/Weimar Republic had open fire onto seperatists and executed.
These guys fled then to France, Belgium and the Netherlands – but in Germany the Nazis came into power, occupied that countries and extinct that movement.

20 people a day were shot in Cologne during the Nazi realm. Not all seperatists – but that gives you an idea who harsh they went onto that region. My great-grandfather was arrested, too – because of an attack onto a party-member and the only reason he survived was because he married the right daughter. Pure luck. Nothing else.
So that seperatistic movement was basically destroyed during the war – and the capital was moved to Bonn.

That is in the Rhineland and they stuck with that. Aware about the problem they united this region with Westphalia based on the Prussian model and the later post-war German government tried to unite the country.
You can see this still today on the German perception onto the Rhineland and that is the simple reason why France had basically no saying or ambition to get control over that region, because we did not went pro-French - but pro-independence - because France promised us a country - and till today they did not deliver. I am now talking about Napoleon here.

Now:
The cancellor of Germany is a former member of a movement that wanted to have their own country between France and Germany and your allies like Britain don't want you influence into here, while the US-Americans want to keep the Russians away, so a placement of a capital far away from the WP is totally in line with German war doctrines. German war doctrine: Cut off the head of the infrastructure asap, because we can fight without a head- others can not. In case you are into warfare-history. That is why it is called German warfare. Today France and Israel have that, too only the British and Americans thought they had a better plan and now the US reverting into that direction, too.

Some would have liked to be French after the war - but only because they would make horrible French.
To this and to the end - let's say it with another Rhine-Frankish wisdom:
It is like it is, it will be like it will be and it always turned out well.

And as I have nobody to reply to that here in the cultural correct way - I will reply to that myself: And what is gone is gone.

So in case you ever plan to take over West-Europe - keep that on mind, as you will have to deal with people who run on that and are used to others who know better than they do who they are, or belong to or should be or should do.
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,556
Lorraine tudesque
#34
And that was the moment when the thread turned into a musical:

Because we were the inhabitants of Trizonesia....
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


We do have maids with fiery wild natures.
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


We are no ma-an - eaters, but we ki-iss for that much better...

We are the inhabitants of Trizonesia..
hi-di-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-chimmela-boom.


And you want to read up on that, specifically the part Adenauer says at the bottom. And to get the full picture - listen to what they stood up to.
Don't think that is popular knowledge if I see that even on wiki they only have that in English and German.



Jo, jo, dat.

(That is Ripuarian. Translation: Yes, yes, this)

Now back to -Merdiolu... from Turkey! We got a lot of Turkish boys on our streets who say, they are now so and so many and want to take us over.
To them we say, too: Jo, jo, dat.
We say this here since 2000 years - even to Caesar as he said - you can not hold that land only because you stole it from some local tribes.
And the Prussians tried to breed us out. Take a guess what we said to them?
We are here the Frankish culture zone, that name does not come from nowhere.

But to turn that musical back to a threat - sorry yarn - uh- I mean thread:

Adenauer, the first cancellor, made a 180 degree turn from a seperatist to a federalist as he came into office.
He is from the Rhineland region. That is why he got the support he got. Because a seperatist is everything but no nationalist (like in national socialist), like half of the German government.

The state itself Nortrhine-Westphalia is a British product that belonged to the British occupation zone, based on Prussia.

Prussia and England shared up to WWI a common anti-French view. With the WWI that broke apart – because the Prussian side was extinct.
That resulted into seperation movements similar to the unification movements in Northern Ireland in the 1920s.
The climax was the short founding of the Rhineland Republic – supported by France, but for the same reasons declined by Britain.
By that the Germans/Weimar Republic had open fire onto seperatists and executed.
These guys fled then to France, Belgium and the Netherlands – but in Germany the Nazis came into power, occupied that countries and extinct that movement.

20 people a day were shot in Cologne during the Nazi realm. Not all seperatists – but that gives you an idea who harsh they went onto that region. My great-grandfather was arrested, too – because of an attack onto a party-member and the only reason he survived was because he married the right daughter. Pure luck. Nothing else.
So that seperatistic movement was basically destroyed during the war – and the capital was moved to Bonn.

That is in the Rhineland and they stuck with that. Aware about the problem they united this region with Westphalia based on the Prussian model and the later post-war German government tried to unite the country.
You can see this still today on the German perception onto the Rhineland and that is the simple reason why France had basically no saying or ambition to get control over that region, because we did not went pro-French - but pro-independence - because France promised us a country - and till today they did not deliver. I am now talking about Napoleon here.

Now:
The cancellor of Germany is a former member of a movement that wanted to have their own country between France and Germany and your allies like Britain don't want you influence into here, while the US-Americans want to keep the Russians away, so a placement of a capital far away from the WP is totally in line with German war doctrines. German war doctrine: Cut off the head of the infrastructure asap, because we can fight without a head- others can not. In case you are into warfare-history. That is why it is called German warfare. Today France and Israel have that, too only the British and Americans thought they had a better plan and now the US reverting into that direction, too.

Some would have liked to be French after the war - but only because they would make horrible French.
To this and to the end - let's say it with another Rhine-Frankish wisdom:
It is like it is, it will be like it will be and it always turned out well.

And as I have nobody to reply to that here in the cultural correct way - I will reply to that myself: And what is gone is gone.

So in case you ever plan to take over West-Europe - keep that on mind, as you will have to deal with people who run on that and are used to others who know better than they do who they are, or belong to or should be or should do.
A gréngen Hond an e treien Preiss gett et nett.

There is no such thing as a green dog and a faithfull Prussian.
 

authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
4,896
#36
Why France in post war truma did not gain any buffer zone territory for security ?
You must surely have heard of the division of Germany into 4 military occupation zones after WW2? Russia got the East, America got the scenery, France got the wine and Britain got the ruins.

France even got a military zone in Berlin.

 
Apr 2014
297
Istanbul Turkey
#37
USA wanted to treat France as a belligerent nation after Vichy France supported Hitler. They are lucky they kept their pre war boundaries.
US and western bloc in general let France to keep their overseas colonies (IndoChina , NorthWest Africa) after 1945 for sake of fighting Communism together right ? If they let French fourth republic to keep their distant colonies , could Franch goverment insist and apply more pressure to occupy and annex Rhineland permenantly ? After all this was the main staging area for German invasions of Metropolitan France for three times since 1870. French could always say to US and UK give us Rhineland as buffer zone for further security or I will be more favorable to Soviet Union in 1945-46 and in face of growing Cold War tensions and desire to keep France in Western Bloc , who knows ? Another "orderly and humane" forced removal /exile of entire German population in Rhineland might be have conducted just like in East Prussia or Pomerennia or Silesia. (thank god it did not happen that way. But considering long term animosty etween France and Germany , I am a little suprised French did not insist for more territory. They were invaded and occupied for four years between 1940-45 , their economy was in shambles , demographics falling and thy couldn't assume US would keep its presence in Europe forever)
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,556
Lorraine tudesque
#40
I think the blue and white striped area, in the french sector, just below the G in Germany, represents the Saarland.
Yes, exactly. A friend of me was in Kaiserslautern as a soldier- after changing her money from french francs to DM they could not buy a beer after one week. This is explaining why France could not even hold the Saarland.