Why Germany's name is not France.

Jan 2014
999
Rus
#1
Germany and France both have derived from Franks state. Furthermore HRE was the core descendant of this state. Modern France was quite secondary. But it got name of Franks (even Frankreich = Frank's Empire in German language).

Why?
 

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
3,877
Slovenia, EU
#2
Most of Franks went to France. German part of HRE was made of founding duchies: Saxonia, Franconia, Swabia, Bavaria and both Lorraines. Names and distribution of lands say that Franks were not the biggest and strongest faction in Germany.
 
Likes: Iraq Bruin
Oct 2018
26
Belgium
#3
I'd just like to point out that the German word "Reich", or the Dutch "rijk", does not mean "empire" as such. Because English lacks a direct equivalent, "empire" is often used, but a closer approximation would be the barely used word "realm". French has the same lack of an equivalent word. So "Frankreich" does not mean "Empire of the Franks", but something like "the realm of the Franks", or simply "the land(s) of the Franks". I suppose this is also the basis of why many people with English or French over the centuries have made jokes about the Holy Roman Empire not really being an Empire. Well, no, it was a "Reich", which isn't the same thing.

Other than that, Macon has already explained it. France ended up getting its name from what had been the dominant Germanic tribe to settle there. Germany, where there was no such dominant tribe, got a name based on the fact that all the tribes (including some of the Franks of course) that were there spoke closely-related Germanic dialects, whereas the Franks who had settled in France pretty soon adopted the local Romance language.
 
Sep 2012
3,751
Bulgaria
#5
True that. Regarding the translation of das Reich into English Boduognat is correct realm is the only English word that comes close to the meaning, though in most cases Empire is fine. Weimar constitution begins with 'Das Deutsche Reich ist eine Republik' translation 'The German Reich is a Republic' and because an empire cannot be republic the proper translation should be realm in this case. Etymology of the word reich | Origin and meaning of reich by Online Etymology Dictionary

Regarding the Franks there is a region in Germany - Franken / or Franconia in English - which was the original territory of the Ripuarian Franks. The Franks from France were Salian Franks. Franken (Region) – Wikipedia.
 
Likes: Futurist

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,383
Sydney
#6
for memory during the third century , the German tribes federated in two main groups
the Franks and the Alamans .
it is telling that the German call the French "Franks" while the French call the Germans "Allemands"
 
Jun 2017
2,814
Connecticut
#7
East Francia which largely consisted of non Frankish people's conquered and ruled by a Frankish King. While France was largely where the Franks lived and while their Carolingian King was eventually succeeded by a series of Frankish Kings, after East Francia's Frankish royal family died out power was given to the ruler's of the various Germanic leaders.
 
Apr 2017
138
Bayreuth
#8
Germany and France both have derived from Franks state. Furthermore HRE was the core descendant of this state. Modern France was quite secondary. But it got name of Franks (even Frankreich = Frank's Empire in German language).

Why?
What the Emperor of Wurttemburg says, with the population amount this has nothing to do, because the Franks are living in Lorraine, the Duchy of Franconia belongs to their control zone, because people moved there. But Lorraine was first no part of the East-Frankish realm, but the moment it was - you have there three Frankish provinces on the map.

Otto I (map of Macon see above) – has frankish ancestry but is a Saxon. So the Regnum francorum orientalium (East-Frankish Realm) becomes the Regnum Teutonicorum (realm of the Germans) to legitimize his rule.
Based on the church it later becomes the Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationis Germanicae (Holy Roman Empire of German Nations).

By excluding the Franks from Germany – non-Franks could rule and bind the Frankish region to their turf they legitimize their rule/existence with.
While the French do the opposite and include everything into France for the very same reason.
To french and un-french is political propaganda to legitimize and bind the people together, there is no other reason.

for memory during the third century , the German tribes federated in two main groups
the Franks and the Alamans .
it is telling that the German call the French "Franks" while the French call the Germans "Allemands"
And that is the reason why French call Germans Alemanns. Because the Alemanns are the closest to them that are no Franks. Duchy of Swabia (from Suebi) that are Alemanns. But we have much more main-groups Saxons f.e. Duchy of Saxony (see above) that is Teuteborg, Arminius, Widukind etc.
But that the French call Germans Alemanni – is to un-french/un-frank them. It is a common narrative that Franks are not like Germans.

And what they started we do till today. There is nothing Frankish or French in Germany – and in France everything is French on political levels.
On social levels (and historical etc.) this is different. People of that regions – IF they have family roots – you have immigrants as well who do not have that history or knowledge, because their parents or grand-parents moved there – so they do not have a connection – can unite cross borders.
Franks unite based on who is the foreigner from their perception.

We for example call other Germans immigrants as well in our region, this can then result into funny situations, if you have a Frankish Dutch, French or Belgian on the table, who has suddenly club-membership and is not considered an immigrant and then these guys start to talk politics or history, because they do not associate themselves with the political narrative of the ruling parties.
Such stuff you do not learn in school, so it can hit you quite unprepared.^^
 
Likes: Slavon
Oct 2018
26
Belgium
#9
We for example call other Germans immigrants as well in our region, this can then result into funny situations, if you have a Frankish Dutch, French or Belgian on the table, who has suddenly club-membership and is not considered an immigrant
What on Earth is a "Frankish Dutch, French or Belgian"? By "our region", I take it you mean Cologne. You're describing something I certainly don't recognise as some kind of widespread idea among inhabitants of that part of Germany.
 
Jan 2014
999
Rus
#10
Most of Franks went to France. German part of HRE was made of founding duchies: Saxonia, Franconia, Swabia, Bavaria and both Lorraines. Names and distribution of lands say that Franks were not the biggest and strongest faction in Germany.
Franks moved to East too. "Duchy of Franconia" was established by Franks the same way as "kingdom of France". Moreover the core land of Franks was Lorraine of your map. For example, Charlemagne and his heirs lived in Ahen in Lorraine. Other lands were conqured by Franks too. So they were "biggest and strongest" indeed.

My guess is next: HRE proper was drawn by Saxon herzogs (Otto, etc). Saxons were implacable enemies of Franks. So may be them shifted name of country from Frankia to Germany.
 
Likes: macon