Why Germany's name is not France.

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,778
Lorraine tudesque
Yes sure. But then Lorraine was a part of the Reich.
And even if we did not like the Prussian. The Prussian school was good.
 
Oct 2013
14,075
Europix
...
Please check one-by-one on the Wiki (with references) the classification and categories of the following languages: Occitan, Catalan, Corsican, Alsatian, West Flemish, Lorraine Franconian, Gallo, Picard or Ch’timi and Arpitan
And you will see it.
Quoting only one source for demonstrating consensus ... that's rich.

But it doesn't matter, as even the only source You are relying upon is countering You (and I'm far from being surprised, as it's not the first time You don't check You own sources).

Just two example, and I stick to Wiki for Your pleasure:

Lorraine Franconian Is not "a language".

" ... Lorraine Franconian (Lorraine Franconian: Plàtt, lothrìnger Plàtt; French: francique lorrain, platt lorrain; German: Lothringisch) is an ambiguous designation for dialects of West Central German (German: Westmitteldeutsch), a group of High German dialects spoken in the Moselle department of the former north-eastern French region of Lorraine . ..."

West Flemish - is not a language:

"... a dialect of the Dutch language spoken in western Belgium and adjoining parts of the Netherlands and France...


I'm awfully sorry, but:

1. You are not a linguist.
2. You do not know French.
3. You admire an inexistent scholarly consensus.
+
4. You don't check Your own sources (the very few moments You provide any)

________________
PS: passages in italics are quotes from English Wiki
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,383
Sydney
@ Deaf tuner , thanks for the link
from page 47 , I observe than for conscripts born between 1896 and 1900 the rate of literacy was 99.2%
since there was universal conscription ,this would cover all regions of France
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,778
Lorraine tudesque
Quoting only one source for demonstrating consensus ... that's rich.

But it doesn't matter, as even the only source You are relying upon is countering You (and I'm far from being surprised, as it's not the first time You don't check You own sources).

Just two example, and I stick to Wiki for Your pleasure:

Lorraine Franconian Is not "a language".

" ... Lorraine Franconian (Lorraine Franconian: Plàtt, lothrìnger Plàtt; French: francique lorrain, platt lorrain; German: Lothringisch) is an ambiguous designation for dialects of West Central German (German: Westmitteldeutsch), a group of High German dialects spoken in the Moselle department of the former north-eastern French region of Lorraine . ..."

West Flemish - is not a language:

"... a dialect of the Dutch language spoken in western Belgium and adjoining parts of the Netherlands and France...


I'm awfully sorry, but:

1. You are not a linguist.
2. You do not know French.
3. You admire an inexistent scholarly consensus.
+
4. You don't check Your own sources (the very few moments You provide any)

________________
PS: passages in italics are quotes from English Wiki
My mothertongue is the official language of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
 
Oct 2013
14,075
Europix
@ Deaf tuner , thanks for the link ...
My pleasure!

It doesn't deal with actual rates, but more with comparisons on different criteria. It's what's interesting (well, for myself)

... from page 47 , I observe than for conscripts born between 1896 and 1900 the rate of literacy was 99.2%
since there was universal conscription ,this would cover all regions of France
Ofcourse.

On the table You can also see the evolution of the rate in time.

Anyway, personally I was a bit triggered by the "all" in the post which I consider slightly exaggerating in 1880.

Also the "all were speaking French" can be misleading. Speaking the standard French doesn't mean their mother tongue/dialect/patois felt out of use.

What became the standard French (langue du Roy) has the particularity to have had replaced the usual Latin very early in administration and official usage. It also became an European lingua franca, a "prestigious" language, not unlike the English these days.

But that doesn't mean it replaced other languages/dialects. Exactly as Dutch, or Russian high-society spoke (sometimes exclusively) French, while the Dutch or Russian was still spoken, in France too, there was a quit long period of bi-linguism. People started to speak "la Langue du Roy" in parallel, not in place of.

The dissapearence, or better said, the replacement of different local languages/dialects/patois started in the late 19th, and it isn't exclusively due to the imposition of the standard French through schooling but also through the profound changes of the society: industrialisation created more migration, a bigger mobility of people, WWI brought trough it's huge conscription a phenomenon of mixing people that weren't supposed to come in contact at an unprecedented scale, the aparition and development of written press, of the radio promoted also indirectly the generalisation of standard French.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,383
Sydney
As a matter of fact , the widespread literacy allowed the local ( mother ) languages to be written
often for the first time and to be codified with a grammar
it is probable than before literacy there would be strong variation between regions and patois of mother languages
 
Oct 2013
14,075
Europix
As a matter of fact , the widespread literacy allowed the local ( mother ) languages to be written
often for the first time and to be codified with a grammar
it is probable than before literacy there would be strong variation between regions and patois of mother languages
Maybe.

AFAIK, In France (but not only), the local languages/dialects/patois started to be written (eventually codified, if ever) quit late, after they started to "fall", often the initiators weren't the people speaking it, but ethnologists, passionate regionalists and the likes. A "from up to down" movement, a "from exterior" movement, not an internal movement, if You want.

It's a sort of hierarchy: the French was the superior, prestigious language, while the patois was the inferior, the "bad" French.

Anyway, this old paper could maybe tell You more than I: Adolphe BREULIER: "Des patois et du recueil des poésies populaires de la France"
 
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Theodoric

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2,692
I'm no linguist, but I'd bet the English term "Germany" comes from the Italian "Kingdom of Germania" - which in turn is derived from the Latin based "Germania" used during the Roman Imperial period as a designation for Netherlands, Belgium, some of France, and a bit of Germany (and occasionally applied to all Germanic realms by modern historians, I am unsure if the Romans applied the name "Germania" to ALL German lands though, or just those West of the Rhine).

Anyway, the "Kingdom of the Teutons" was a term which came about for political reasons to designate different nationalities in the HRE - the Kingdom of Italy was the other major designation (since West Francia was no longer a part of the Empire). This is the same entity that in English became "Kingdom of Germany" and the heir of the Holy Roman Empire would first be granted the title of "King of Germany" in a similar way to how the heir of the Kingdom of England is granted the title "Prince of Wales" - just with one level of Nobility downward. Then the various other names (Tyskland, Allemagne, Deutschland, Saksa) have other histories and/or etymological (Germany equivalent origins) reasons for the names. But because the HRE effectively broke up into multi-ethnic groups, the designation for Germany survived its end.

In short, East Francia sort of transformed into the HRE, and the HRE formed Kingdoms based on ethnicities, so rather than keeping "Frank" as the basis, it went with German and Italian.
 
Oct 2015
5,183
Matosinhos Portugal
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