Why is China scared of Tibet?

Feb 2011
6,459
Good that you admit it: That PRC "occupied" Tibet. This settles first part of the debate.
Is this the best you can do? Argue with semantics over the word "occupy"? I'm sorry, I'm more interested with the facts on the ground: How China first controlled Tibet (they were invited in to kick out the Mongols in the 18th century), had China ever officially relinquished their hold since then, how Tibetans are being treated, how Tibetan culture is being treated, are they indeed second class citizens, do they benefit from affirmative action, is their life improving, how much do they want to stay as part of China, how much do they want independence etc. etc.....
All evidence listed above have been provided, so what's the point of independence when even the TGIE study shows most Tibetans in Tibet don't want it? Is an independent Tibet what you want or what the Tibetans living in Tibet want? India have its own separatist problems, would you agree India should relinquish 1/4 of its territory just because China made up a bunch of things (ie genocide) that India is doing and says India should relinquish territory based off of that?
 
Last edited:
Likes: wych
Aug 2015
1,861
Los Angeles
You have not given the original reference to the UN Report or its date (it may be very old). Effectively it can be summarized as under:

[1] Tibet as defined by TGIE mean the wider area in which ethnic Tibetan people are settled & are in majority. Here there is significant state-driven migration of Hans Chinese. Still ethnic Tibetans remain in majority in most areas.
Do you have that report? What is TGIE?
 
Jul 2014
1,602
world
Here is the link: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/423ea9094.pdf

TGIE = Tibetan Government in Exile. This consists of the ruling elite which was forced to flee Tibet in late 1950s when CPC occupation of Tibet converted itself into the ruling elite. Dalai Lama, fearing his life, also fled Tibet in this wave.
Here is the link: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/423ea9094.pdf

TGIE = Tibetan Government in Exile. This consists of the ruling elite which was forced to flee Tibet in late 1950s when CPC occupation of Tibet converted itself into the ruling elite. Dalai Lama, fearing his life, also fled Tibet in this wave.
The truth is little different. Dalai Lama and more importantly his cabinet which held the real power did not want to go any where. They were quite satisfied with the autonomy granted by the Beijing. I repeat they were quite satisfied with the arrangements till 1959.
 
Oct 2015
1,133
India
The truth is little different. Dalai Lama and more importantly his cabinet which held the real power did not want to go any where. They were quite satisfied with the autonomy granted by the Beijing. I repeat they were quite satisfied with the arrangements till 1959.
Songtsen, my view is not far from this. Try to put yourself in the shoes of Dalai Lama and see:

Phase-1: Dalai Lama was a ruler and before that he had asserted / declared independence of Tibet from Chinese.

Phase-2: When the CPC Army entered Tibet in 1950, Dalai Lama had only one option - like had happened a few times earlier in Tibetan history - but to accept and bend before the Chinese. So a working arrangement between invading Army and peaceful Dalai Lama was hammered out with discussions. Chinese were also okay with the agreement - seeing it as an interim - because they did not know what would be the response of international community to a full forcible takeover of Tibet.

Phase-3: A decade after the above, around 1958-1959 the CPC Army took over and Dalai Lama was clear that his life and liberty were at stake. So he fled Tibet.

Now if you like to call this as "quite satisfied" between 1950-1958, then it is your choice. My thinking is that no ruler wants to dilute his rule unless forced to.
 
Likes: prashanth
Jul 2014
1,602
world
Songtsen, my view is not far from this. Try to put yourself in the shoes of Dalai Lama and see:

Phase-1: Dalai Lama was a ruler and before that he had asserted / declared independence of Tibet from Chinese.

Phase-2: When the CPC Army entered Tibet in 1950, Dalai Lama had only one option - like had happened a few times earlier in Tibetan history - but to accept and bend before the Chinese. So a working arrangement between invading Army and peaceful Dalai Lama was hammered out with discussions. Chinese were also okay with the agreement - seeing it as an interim - because they did not know what would be the response of international community to a full forcible takeover of Tibet.

Phase-3: A decade after the above, around 1958-1959 the CPC Army took over and Dalai Lama was clear that his life and liberty were at stake. So he fled Tibet.

Now if you like to call this as "quite satisfied" between 1950-1958, then it is your choice. My thinking is that no ruler wants to dilute his rule unless forced to.
The incompetence and sheer selfishness of Ganden Phodrang ( Lhasa Government) and even more stupid cabinet resulted in many deaths and still creates many problems for us Tibetans.

The Khampa rebellion started from 1956 and Lhasa government did not any help to the rebels or give any ****. It was when the Khampas arrived uninvited around 1959 to Lhasa that they reacted. It was the Khampa tribesman and Amdo tribesman who forced the Dalai to take sides.

As i said they were quite satisfied until 1959.
 
Jul 2014
1,602
world
The incompetence and sheer selfishness of Ganden Phodrang ( Lhasa Government) and even more stupid cabinet resulted in many deaths and still creates many problems for us Tibetans.

The Khampa rebellion started from 1956 and Lhasa government did not any help to the rebels or give any weapons. It was when the Khampas arrived uninvited around 1959 to Lhasa that they reacted. It was the Khampa tribesman and Amdo tribesman who forced the Dalai to take sides.

As i said they were quite satisfied until 1959.
 
Mar 2012
4,412
Songtsen, my view is not far from this. Try to put yourself in the shoes of Dalai Lama and see:

Phase-1: Dalai Lama was a ruler and before that he had asserted / declared independence of Tibet from Chinese.

Phase-2: When the CPC Army entered Tibet in 1950, Dalai Lama had only one option - like had happened a few times earlier in Tibetan history - but to accept and bend before the Chinese. So a working arrangement between invading Army and peaceful Dalai Lama was hammered out with discussions. Chinese were also okay with the agreement - seeing it as an interim - because they did not know what would be the response of international community to a full forcible takeover of Tibet.

Phase-3: A decade after the above, around 1958-1959 the CPC Army took over and Dalai Lama was clear that his life and liberty were at stake. So he fled Tibet.

Now if you like to call this as "quite satisfied" between 1950-1958, then it is your choice. My thinking is that no ruler wants to dilute his rule unless forced to.
You don't read actual academic sources presented to you, but choose to use political websites instead and you are getting basic facts wrong. As I stated plenty of times, the Ganden Phodrang in 1950 had a choice; they were offered to cooperate with the US against the Communist coalition but they turned it down and joined the PRC instead. The idea of a nation state is largely foreign to the Tibetans at the time and they did not care about being a part of any larger nation state as long as the ruling elite retain their religious structure and retain possible economic or religious patronage (the priest and patron relationship exist all over Tibet, some high lamas even appealed to ROC era warlords for support). The Dalai lama did not flee Tibet because of CCP takeover, on the contrast, the CCP directly took over Tibet because the Dalai Lama fled. The reason was because of Khampa rebellion in Sichuan, and their fleeing into Tibet which caused an unrest.
 
Mar 2012
4,412
Phase-1: Dalai Lama was a ruler and before that he had asserted / declared independence of Tibet from Chinese.
Even the Tibetan declaration of independence in 1912 is not as clear cut as nationalist history would portray it. Much of it was the result of revolting against Zhao Erfeng's brutal policies there in 1910. The fact is that the Ganden Phodrang was always observing politics in China and decides its policy on what happens next in China and never severed its relationship with the ROC (stringing along both western powers and the ROC to get better deals). This is part of the reason why the Ganden regime never aggressively fought for international recognition (and also because they had poor understanding of international law). This can clearly be seen in the 13th Dalai Lama's message to the ROC official Liu Manqing in her memoir report when the Dalai Lama called Tibet "Chinese territory":

"In the past China takes Tibet (Xizang) lightly and abandons it like a barren land. Now the new government sends you to deliver a message, and I admire chairman Chiang and the various elites in power, who can look at the big picture, and hopes to be the same as before (in the Qing), continue with no interruption... As for the western Kham incident, please inform the government not to send an army, and trouble my people, just send a civil official, I can call back my defensive forces any time, its all Chinese territory, why the divide between you and me? The Tibetan army is strong, I cannot stop them from confronting."

The original source:
1555224321090.png

1555224789808.png

Chiang Kaishek also returned a message to the Dalai Lama declaring that "Tibet (Xizang) is part of the Chinese nation" and hoped the Dalai Lama will support the Nationalist party (to which the Dalai Lama did not outright challenge or deny).

1555223997848.png


In 1933, after the death of the 13th Dalai Lama, the Ganden regime even petitioned the ROC to send an official resident to Tibet like China did in the Qing period to which the ROC complied. In the ascension of the 14th Dalai Lama, the ROC official Wu Zhongxin was present to supervise and lend legitimacy to the ceremony (the present 14th Dalai Lama himself was born in a Han-Tibetan village on the border of Qinghai with the surname of Zhao, his family including his brother in America, spoke Xining dialect of mandarin as their mother tongue; this region was under ROC control and hence the 14th's ascendancy was carried out with ROC presence throughout).

The concept of nation state and national sovereignty was still relatively foreign to Tibetans at the time, and the primary concern the Ganden regime had was to retain their religious structure, they believed China would support them like patrons in the past did; especially when prominent Tibetans like the Panchen Lama, who resided in China wrote back about the support the ROC had in promoting Tibetan Buddhism (for details: see Gray Tuttle: Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China). This was the primary reason the Ganden regime chose the PRC over the American offer. They never foresaw that the nature of the communist doctrine was anti-religion and the fundamental incompatibility between their interests and those of the CCP. Tibetan nationalism is hence strengthened by CCP crackdowns, and later policies, and not something that was already strong before the PRC exertion of power.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Similar History Discussions