Why is China scared of Tibet?

Mar 2019
46
Canada
Was Tibet before the CCP governance quite similar to Afghanistan today?
no, but the politics is equally chaotic.
There are three powers in play, the Temple, the ones that pick which farmer's kid gets to be the Dali Lama reincarnate, they collect taxes and have the most organized state in Tibet.
Second, is the Tibetan tribes that is a different ethnicity than the city dwelling Tibetans, they raid Tibetan villages and sometimes attack Chinese towns too, the last power is the Ma warlord clique, who is a muslim and had a war with the Tibetans when they officially claimed to be a independent country, the Tibetan armies lost to his army.
 
Mar 2019
46
Canada
I also think the Comminists and the Nazis are far more alike than different. But I get the feeling you will not be around long enough to engage in such a philosophical debate.
No, Communism believes that all men are equal, like Mao didn't put minorities in a concentration camp, he put people who oppose his rule, where as many radicals in the Natioanlist party before CCP argued to "cleanse" the Manchus from the fact of the earth for "misdirecting China under Manchu rule" that is what you call a Nazi.
 
Jul 2014
1,533
world
no, but the politics is equally chaotic.
There are three powers in play, the Temple, the ones that pick which farmer's kid gets to be the Dali Lama reincarnate, they collect taxes and have the most organized state in Tibet.
Second, is the Tibetan tribes that is a different ethnicity than the city dwelling Tibetans, they raid Tibetan villages and sometimes attack Chinese towns too, the last power is the Ma warlord clique, who is a muslim and had a war with the Tibetans when they officially claimed to be a independent country, the Tibetan armies lost to his army.
Tibetans tribes whether Nomadic or sedentary are of same ethnicity.

The power centers in Central Tibet are Ganden Phodron, Kagyu sects and most importantly Keshag who held real power.

In Khampa areas It was the Ganden Phodrong and loyalist tribes, Derge Kings and loyalist tribes, Tibetan/KMT warlords and loyalist tribes.

In Qinghai/Gansu it was the Yushu/Golok tribes, Ganden Phodrong, Kagyu sects and Muslim KMT warlords.


I don't understand why Ma is seen so highly by many chinese. Warlord Ma was a incompetent and backstabber, He couldn't properly defeat a medieval Tibetan army riding horses with his modern army for 30 years. In 1949 when he ran away like the coward, the Tibetan tribes of Golok and Yushu were still rebelling and undefeated. He equals chiang Kai shek in incompetence and yet he is seen as a hero.

His destruction of Labrang monastery resulted in ethnic hatred that still exists.
He is the reason why muslims are treated so badly in Kham/Amdo areas
 
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Mar 2019
46
Canada
Tibetans tribes whether Nomadic or sedentary are of same ethnicity.

The power centers in Central Tibet are Ganden Phodron, Kagyu sects and most importantly Keshag who held real power.

In Khampa areas It was the Ganden Phodrong and loyalist tribes, Derge Kings and loyalist tribes, Tibetan/KMT warlords and loyalist tribes.

In Qinghai/Gansu it was the Yushu/Golok tribes, Ganden Phodrong, Kagyu sects and Muslim KMT warlords.


I don't understand why Ma is seen so highly by many chinese. Warlord Ma was a incompetent and backstabber, He couldn't properly defeat a medieval Tibetan army riding horses with his modern army for 30 years. In 1949 when he ran away like the coward, the Tibetan tribes of Golok and Yushu were still rebelling and undefeated. He equals chiang Kai shek in incompetence and yet he is seen as a hero.

His destruction of Labrang monastery resulted in ethnic hatred that still exists.
He is the reason why muslims are treated so badly in Kham/Amdo areas
Ma's father was in the Boxer Rebellion, he personally lead a charge by the Muslim cavalry and had a cavalry, although he killed like 55 white dudes, but again, he was using sabers and lances against a machine gun position. Later, USSR invaded Sinkiang, and he held his position and tried to push them back, but the enemy was too strong for him, he did this while Nanjing told him to back down, he probably eventually went crazy or something, because he was last seen by his body guards crossing the border to Russia and was never seen again. But at least his father tried to his best ability, not like Chiang, who was "exchanging space for time" with every invader.
And also if he used his full force against those tribes, he would have won, through a long and expensive extermination campaign, the tribes would be like the communist, running around and harassing his forces, but they weren't much of a threat, they never tried to occupy towns or villages, using a very large force chasing them around is opening up your borders to the communists, Shannxi warlord, and KMT commanders. More over, he defeated Tibetan's actual army very easily, when they tried to invade Qinghai.
His Muslim cavalry was also involved in some battles against the Japanese too, so the Ma family is seen as patriots.
And yeah they were a bit of on the Islamic radical side, but he was Chinese first and Muslim second, he never done much bad to the Tibetans, Uighur and Han under his rule, he also attacked those temples, because they actually welcomed the Tibetan army, and they will welcome them again with food and supplies when the Tibetans come back again.
 
Jul 2014
1,533
world
Ma's father was in the Boxer Rebellion, he personally lead a charge by the Muslim cavalry and had a cavalry, although he killed like 55 white dudes, but again, he was using sabers and lances against a machine gun position. Later, USSR invaded Sinkiang, and he held his position and tried to push them back, but the enemy was too strong for him, he did this while Nanjing told him to back down, he probably eventually went crazy or something, because he was last seen by his body guards crossing the border to Russia and was never seen again. But at least his father tried to his best ability, not like Chiang, who was "exchanging space for time" with every invader.
And also if he used his full force against those tribes, he would have won, through a long and expensive extermination campaign, the tribes would be like the communist, running around and harassing his forces, but they weren't much of a threat, they never tried to occupy towns or villages, using a very large force chasing them around is opening up your borders to the communists, Shannxi warlord, and KMT commanders. More over, he defeated Tibetan's actual army very easily, when they tried to invade Qinghai.
His Muslim cavalry was also involved in some battles against the Japanese too, so the Ma family is seen as patriots.
And yeah they were a bit of on the Islamic radical side, but he was Chinese first and Muslim second, he never done much bad to the Tibetans, Uighur and Han under his rule, he also attacked those temples, because they actually welcomed the Tibetan army, and they will welcome them again with food and supplies when the Tibetans come back again.
Ma's father was a Hero no doubt but we are talking about his son.

Warlord Ma called the Tibetan tribes for a peace meeting and killed the tribal chiefs. That was his only brilliance. The Tibetan army he supposedly defeated were small in numbers and outnumbered and outgunned multiple times.

Ma did try to exterminate Tibetans by genocide and forced conversions. He only stopped because Tibetans paid back in full. When Ma's army disemboweled and beheaded Tibetan children, Tibetan tribes skinned adult muslims alive and converted muslim children . For more than 30 long years he tried to kill and bribe the Tibetan tribes into submission but failed.

Ma failed against the Tibetans , against the Japanese and against the communists. He may not have been incompetent as Chiang but he was close.

Compare him to Liu Wenhui and the difference is stark.
 
Feb 2011
6,346
songsten said:
Warlord Ma called the Tibetan tribes for a peace meeting and killed the tribal chiefs. That was his only brilliance. The Tibetan army he supposedly defeated were small in numbers and outnumbered and outgunned multiple times.

Ma did try to exterminate Tibetans by genocide and forced conversions. He only stopped because Tibetans paid back in full. When Ma's army disemboweled and beheaded Tibetan children, Tibetan tribes skinned adult muslims alive and converted muslim children .
That's some of the most atrocious things I've heard. Do you have sources on this?
 
Jul 2014
1,533
world
That's some of the most atrocious things I've heard. Do you have sources on this?
It is public knowledge. Muslims used to parade Tibetan children's head on horses. Tibetan tribes did bad things themselves.. Muslim men were tortured and killed and childrens adopted by the Tibetans. There used to be Muslim women slaves sold in Naqqu areas as late as 1940s. Tibetan tribes in Qinghai areas still talk about it. American missionaries in the 1930s wrote books about it. I am sure you can find something online.

Hui trade caravans and isolated villages were the favorite targets of the Tibetans and monasteries and small settlements for the Ma's army.

Nobody will admit it but many huis in Qinghai/Gansu were originally Tibetan and many Tibetans in QInghai were originally muslim. They all converted under duress during Dungan wars and Golok rebellion.