Why is Liberia poor if it was never colonized?

May 2016
974
Nabataea
#51
I swear you guys will do anything to deAfricanize Africa and its culture
i think It's the opposite

Stop culture vulturing the Swahili. They already have ENOUGH problems with people trying to take away their civilization. The Swahili coast or Zanzibar being a Oman colony is an old dated and racist view that came from the British during the 19th century. Recent evidence shows that the foundation of Swahili coast were the Swahili people themselves who always BEEN there and trading BEFORE the arrival of Islam. Felix Chami who is Swahili himself proved this.
ever heard of Zanzibar Revolution ? it was in 1964

The Zanzibar Revolution occurred in 1964 and led to the overthrow of the Sultan of Zanzibar and his mainly Arab government by local African Revolutionaries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanzibar_Revolution

They killed every Arab they could find in Zanzibar , The Arab were more than 50,000 at that time .
Heck the Sulton you posted looked liked the many sultons of mixed Swahili descent.
of course he did , is there is anything don't look African or mixed with to " you guys " ?



Compare it to modern president of Zanzibar after Omani Sultanate





And lol fetch us a quote that says the Swahili coast was mostly populated by Arabs and not the Swahilli themselves from the Portuguese. When Ibn Battuta who predates the Portuguese in that area said the city was mostly inhabited by black people...
"We ... traveled by sea to the city of Kulwa [Kilwa in East Africa]...Most of its people are Zunuj, extremely black...The city of Kulwa is amongst the most beautiful of cities and most elegantly built... Their uppermost virtue is religion and righteousness and they are Shafi'i in rite."


-Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1331

Kilwa was founded by a Persian guy named Ali ibn al Hassan Shirazi , what I'm trying to say, the Swahili cost was ruled by either Arab or Persian elite whether Swahili was populated by black or not .
 
Sep 2012
286
Argentina
#52
Which "rest" are you talking about? Does that include Hispanic Americans and Muslim Americans as well?

Can you specify which identity traits those African-Americans have makes them so apart from the rest of America?
Muslim Americans are a very new thing, so I can't speak about that. Hispanic Americans are not a single group. The Mexican Americans don't have much in common with Cuban American or Puerto Ricans. And since most of them are recent migrations, I can't speak about what will happen with them. They might assimilate, they might not.

African Americans are discriminated against, even today, and they hold some culturally unique traits. First of all the use of African American vernacular English. African Americans live in neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly Black. I'm not American and I'm overextending myself, but I think African Americans have not been correctly assimilated in the American society. Otherwise, they'd be just Americans and not African-American.

On the other hand, European immigration was correctly assimilated. That is why most German Americans say they are just Americans, instead of German Americans.
 
Jun 2013
854
Universe
#53
The pygmies in Congo, the SAn people, that's for hunter gatherers. Hunter gatherers are obviously primitive, always. This people even today have not adapted to farming societies.
Are you serious???? Those people are a very small minority of Africa!

So you're telling me that a small minority of hunter gatherers who are maybe 0.5% of the total Arican population represents all of Sub Sahara Africa??? Those two groups were never apart of any African empires, kingdoms or states and were mostly isolated. Yeah the people of the Ashanti empire.


Are definitely the same as hunter gatherers like the Khosian... This is what happens when you look at Sub Sahara Africa in such a narrow view...

Then we have people who developed very archaic agrarian cultures, such as the Maasai, the Dinka. This people did not develop agriculture in a way that could sustain big population settlements.
Again two groups that don't represent all of Africa. The Dinka are like what? Maybe 4 million out of 1.11 billion? Yeah totally represents most of Africa... I can bring up the Yoruba, Hausa, Mandinka, Amhara people, Ashanti/Akan, and Somalis who not only formed complex societies, but form the more larger ethnics of Africa than those ethnics you listed. And the Yorubas btw today who developed Lagos which is a mega-city with a growing middle class...


Most people from inside the continent(that is, non coastal regions) were very very backwards. Only the areas with big population densities such as Nigeria, the Gold Coast and Congo had some development. Agriculture was still very archaic when compared to that used in Eurasia. There were only a few staple foods, and the plow did not exist, there were usually not large domestic animals that could be used for power. While in China we had all this complex irrigation systems, in Africa they hardly knew about fertilizer . Use of iron tools was very limited, and the quality of the iron was bad. And the wheel...
Show us proof that the iron use in Africa was so inferior. Fetch us proof that Africans hardly knew about fertilizers. And fetch us proof that they barely domesticated.

And as for wheel use.



When we talk about Sub-Saharan Africa(particularly south of Congo), we cite civilizations such as Great Zimbabwe and a few more, as if they were exceptions. Because they mostly are. The interior of the continent was very scarcely populated and undeveloped.
This is getting rich... It seems the more I pound on your definition of "Sub Sahara Africa" is getting narrower and narrower.

Fact is what you call the "interior" of Africa was populated very late which is why we hardly see complex African civilizations in interior Central Africa and very southern Africa like we do in West and East Africa. Those areas were mostly inhabited by hunter gatherers before. This is what most people don't take note of.



I cite the African Americans because even after having lived in the continent for at least 200 years, most of them still hold a distinct identity from the rest.
Hispanic-Americans have their own distant identity. Jewish-Americans have their own distant identity. Asian-Americans have their own distant identity. Italian-Americans have their own distant identity. Arab-Americans have their own distant identity. Again what are you referring about?
 
Jun 2013
854
Universe
#54
i think It's the opposite



ever heard of Zanzibar Revolution ? it was in 1964

The Zanzibar Revolution occurred in 1964 and led to the overthrow of the Sultan of Zanzibar and his mainly Arab government by local African Revolutionaries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanzibar_Revolution

They killed every Arab they could find in Zanzibar , The Arab were more than 50,000 at that time .
Once again you are arguing a very dated and racist argument. The Oman rule in Zanzibar came late around the 19th century. How were they the ones who founded the Swahili coast or Zanzibar? These videos refutes all of that and even addresses the Oman rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsoPMbt5CZM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew_3IQ6842Q


of course he did , is there is anything don't look African or mixed with to " you guys " ?



Compare it to modern president of Zanzibar after Omani Sultanate

What do you mean "you guys." You're the one who's trying to hijack Swahili history for your own Arab history. How many times do I have to explain that Oman rule came very late i.e during the 19th century? Swahili civilization predates the 19th century by a whole lot...

Again here is what Felix Chami, an ACTUAL Swahili has to say.
The Origin of The Swahili Towns
Scholars had, up to the end of the twentieth century, debated the origin of the Swahili people and their stone town culture. Such debates revolved on the question of who the Swahili people were (Allen 1974, 1983; Nurse and Spear 1985; Pouwels 1987; Horton 1987; and Chami 1994, 1998). The original popular conception was that the Swahili people and their culture originated from the Middle East. These were alleged to have arrived in waves of immigration. Individuals in these waves founded settlements, which later grew into larger Swahili stone towns. Chittick (1974, 1975) used chronicles, particularly that of Kilwa, and archaeology to argue that the earliest immigrants could have arrived on the East African coast not earlier that the ninth century. This view suggested, therefore, that the Swahili people were originally Persians or Arabs who would later have mixed with Africans. Due to their alleged origin in the Muslim world the Swahili people were necessarily Muslims and people of towns.

Archaeologists such as Horton (1987), influenced by Allen (1983), suggested that the Swahili were people of Cushitic origin, from the northeast of Africa, who were originally pastoralists. The pastoralists, who are alleged to have ruled the Bantu speakers in a mythical land called Shunguaya, mixed with Bantu speakers, adopted Islam and spread to the rest of the coast and islands of East Africa. In this theory the Swahili people are seen as Africans who also mixed with the people of the Middle East in the process of adopting Islam and trade. This position was made more prominent in the 1990s (Horton 1990; Abungu 1994–1995; Sutton 1994–1995) in an attempt to quash the discovery that the Swahili people were Africans of Bantu origin, people of the general region of Eastern and Southern Africa who were agriculturalists and fishermen.

That the Swahili people did speak a Bantu language was a point recognised by linguists from the 1980s (Nurse and Spear 1985). Archaeologists had also established settlements of Early Iron Working people near the coast; scholars recognised that they were early Bantu speakers (Soper 1971; Phillipson 1977). Historians also recognised that the people reported by the Romans in the first centuries AD to have inhabited East Africa, then known as Azania, were agriculturalists and probably Bantu speaking (Casson 1989). In the early 1990s this author suggested that the cultural tradition found in the earliest Swahili settlements was culturally related to that of the Early Iron Working tradition (Chami 1994). In some cases settlements of the Early Iron Working people and those of the so‐called early Swahili, termed by this author as Triangular Incised Ware tradition, were found in the same location. In some cases the later was found superimposed over the former in the offshore islands and on the coastal littoral of the central coast of Tanzania (Chami 1998, 1999a).

The evidence of cultural continuity from the time of Christ, through the mid‐first millennium AD, to the time of the foundation of the Swahili towns in the early centuries of the second millennium AD, has now been recognised by many scholars (Kusimba 1999; Sinclair and Hakansson 2000; Spear 2000). Those who disagreed with the the first set of evidence for this continuity have now revised their ideas (Horton 1996; Horton and Middleton 2000; Sutton 1998). Archaeological findings now prove that the Swahili coast had been settled by an agricultural and trading population from the time of Pharaonic Egypt, 3000 BCE, through the Greaco‐Roman period (Chami 2006). Whereas the former was of Neolithic tradition, the latter was an Early Iron Working culture. Throughout these periods the Indian Ocean, just like it was during the time of Islam, had brisk trade with communities of Asia, the Middle East and the Red Sea/Mediterranean worlds. Ceramics and beads as evidence of trade of all these pre‐Islamic trading periods have now been recovered from the islands of Zanzibar, Mafia, Kilwa and Rufiji River (for conspectus see Chami 1999b, 2004, 2006).

The most recent thinking that the early Swahili people, or Zanj of the Arab documents, were Indonesians/Austronesians (Dick‐Read 2005) is an attempt to disregard the archaeological, linguistic and historical data already established. For this recent thinking to be regarded as scientific at least a discussion of the previous thinking on the subject matter and its flaws should have be debated.

Some Cultural Aspects of the Swahili Towns
General Culture
The culture of the Swahili towns, as already suggested, is African with an infusion of Islamic traits. It is these infused Islamic traits such as religion, law, language, writing and costume which have made many students of the Swahili culture identify the people as Arabs. The people who had adopted this culture themselves wanted to be identified as Arabs or Persians. However, Ibn Baṭṭūṭa identified the people as ‘Sawahil’ and the earliest European visitors to the Swahili world, the Portuguese, identified the people as ‘Moors’ or ‘Suaili’ as opposed to Arabs.

De Barros, as Ibn Baṭṭūṭa did, also identified the Sultans of Kilwa as black people (Chittick 1975: 39). Barbosa, writing in about 1518, wrote, “Of the Moors there are some fair and some black, they are finely clad in many rich garments of gold and silk and cotton.” To show that the Swahilis were different from Arabs, the Queen of Kilwa in the mid‐eighteenth century wrote a letter calling home her people who had run away from the Arab/Omani domination of Kilwa to Mozambique. This was written in Kiswahili and not in Arabic; a Swahili letter suggesting that it was only the Europeans/Christians who were in conflict with the Arabs, but not the African/Swahili people (Omar and Frankl 1994).
Click to expand...
Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures
Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg New York 2008
10.1007/978-1-4020-4425-0_8504
Helaine Selin

Cities and Towns in East Africa
Felix Chami


Enough already.

Oh and btw that image of an Arab sultan of Zanzibar you posted. I did some research and came back with sources that YET AGAIN agrees with what I am saying in that Oman rule came LATE. Also so much for your claim of the Portuguese seeing mostly Arabs, when in fact they identified most of the people as black/African.

The Sultans of Zanzibar were the rulers of the Sultanate of Zanzibar, which was created on 19 October 1856 after the death of Said bin Sultan, who had ruled Oman and Zanzibar as the Sultan of Oman since 1804. The Sultans of Zanzibar were of a cadet branch of the Al Said Dynasty of Oman.[1]
http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=List of Sultans of Zanzibar&uid=1575

Yeah Oman sultans who came during the 19th century were foundation of Swahili civilization...

Kilwa was founded by a Persian guy named Ali ibn al Hassan Shirazi , what I'm trying to say, the Swahili cost was ruled by either Arab or Persian elite whether Swahili was populated by black or not .
No evidence supports this. Every archaeological evidence shows that Kilwa was settled prior to Islam and was trading prior ti the arrival or Arabs or Persians. Go fecth us an Arab/Persian ruler of Kilwa.

A discovery which a Tanzanian archaeologist believes will change how East African history is regarded has been made on tiny Juani Island, off the Tanzanian coast.

Felix Chami, professor of archaeology at the University of Dar es Salaam has uncovered a major site on Juani, near Mafia Island, which he believes will substantially increase the evidence that East Africa was part of a wider Indian Ocean community.

Previous to Dr Chami's other discoveries on the Tanzanian coast, scholars had never considered East Africa as part of the ancient world.

The professor had been alerted to the existence of the cave by two local men who informed Peter Byrne, owner of a small lodge on Mafia Island and supporter of efforts to discover the intriguing history of these small islands - which are now entirely dependent on fishing.

Cave spirits

We sailed on a dhow from Mafia Island to a beach on nearby Juani Island which Dr Chami believes may have been an ancient port since the Iron Age.


Unlike the other islands, Juani has fresh water and soil suitable for agriculture.

The two local men, whose curiosity had overcome beliefs that the caves are inhabited by spirits, led us more than a kilometre along jungle tracks.

The men hacked a path through the luxuriant growth with pangas which revealed a collapsed coral cave around 20 metres in diameter.

With the help of hanging vines we climbed down into the cave.

Major site

Scattered throughout the seven to 10-metre-high overhanging cave were shards of pottery, human bones and three skulls.

Dr Chami examined the skulls but said only carbon dating would establish their age.

He was most excited by the large habitable area of soft loose soil, at least 50 square metres.

"There could be three metres of layers here to establish a cultural chronology," he says.

"This is a marvel. I believe this was a major Iron Age site. I can assure you this will change the archaeology of East Africa."

Felix Chami will return to the site with his team after the rainy season to start a full excavation.

In the past five years Dr Chami has overturned the belief that Swahili civilisation was simply the result of Indian Ocean trade networks.

Trade secrets

"It was thought that Swahili settlements were founded by foreigners, particularly by Islamic traders," he says. "But these discoveries show the people here were interacting with other civilisations - and long before the Islamic era."

Dr Chami believes the coastal communities may have been trading animal goods, such as ivory as well as iron.

Dr. Chami utilised the writings of Greek geographer Ptolemy (c.87-150 AD) who described settlements in East Africa as "metropolis" and also referred to "cave dwellers".

Ptolemy even specified a latitude eight degrees south on a large river -the location of the Rufiji river.

It was there on the hills above the river that Dr Chami found the remains of settlements with ancient trading goods and evidence of agriculture.

Directly opposite the Rufiji delta are Mafia & Juani Islands.

Dr Chami's excavations uncovered cultural artefacts which have been carbon dated to 600 BC.

They included Greco-Roman pottery, Syrian glass vessels, Sassanian pottery from Persia and glass beads.

But Felix Chami believes the new site on Juani Island may well be the most significant yet.
Click to expand...
BBC News | AFRICA | Tanzanian dig unearths ancient secret
 
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betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
5,678
#55
Saying Liberia was never colonized is not entirely accurate. It was run by the descendants of US slaves. Many of those who returned to Africa were middle class free blacks and most were part white.

The main reason it was not colonized was it was under US protection. The US did not take part in the scramble for Africa. The colonial powers understood that invading Liberia would damage relations with the US and might result in war with the US.

The US had radio towers and other assets in Liberia in the cold war. After the 1980 revolution ending rule by the former slave elite, the US resumed a close relationship with the new Liberian government.

The ancient Orthodox Christian kingdom of Ethiopia was probably the black African country most effective at maintaining its independence.
 
Jun 2015
5,531
UK
#57
It was founded as a colony.

China is poor (in living standards terms compared to most of the world). As is Thailand, and North Korea. Europeans never controlled these countries, and they all are poor. Mongolia is another example.
 
Jun 2015
5,531
UK
#58
as for why it is poor. Well it's due to numerous civil wars, amongst others. to say colonialism should make a country poor is not true. UAE isn't poor, neither is Singapore.
 
Jun 2016
81
East germany
#59
It was founded as a colony.

China is poor (in living standards terms compared to most of the world). As is Thailand, and North Korea. Europeans never controlled these countries, and they all are poor. Mongolia is another example.
LOL China is nowehere near as poor as those countries you listed.

Out of the 5 alpha++ cities, 3 are from China.
Shanghai, Beijing and HongKong.

China has dozens of modern 21at century megacities whereas Liberia barely has any civilization.
 
Jun 2013
854
Universe
#60
LOL China is nowehere near as poor as those countries you listed.

Out of the 5 alpha++ cities, 3 are from China.
Shanghai, Beijing and HongKong.

China has dozens of modern 21at century megacities whereas Liberia barely has any civilization.

I'm not going to even get into another one of these, because to be quite frank its getting tiresome and annoying.

So say whatever you please. :)