Why is racialism wrong and immoral

Status
Closed
Jun 2018
133
New Hampshire
"Cultural Marxism is a cancer that should be opposed by all people who love their nations, cultures, and heritage"

I just love statements which in which a person has the arrogance to tell me what I should do. Especially when they also contain sweeping generalisations and a basic logical fallacy. In this case it's "the no true Scotsman"

I love my country, but do not hate others. I can't claim to 'love my culture" as I have no idea what you mean, and suspect you don't either. A definable culture is a slippery thing to grasp, especially if living in say a city, or vastly spread population.

Ethno Nationalism is more correctly called xenophobia and racism. However, I think human beings do have a hard wired tendency towards those things. That doe snot mean they are right or moral.

In my country, we tend to overcome such atavistic urges. I have struggled for over 40 years to overcome the casual and institutionalised racism of my country whicH I was taught as a child.

Eg Australia had "The White Australia Policy" until 19783. That was the logical conclusion to ethno-nationalism
The above mentioned policy of your ancestors was not just reasonable, it was a patriotic attempt to preserve the ethnic demographics and cultural heritage of their nation. Australia as a nation was founded in the late 18th century by peoples of the British Isles. European peoples. They had every right to preserve their identity just as the French, Italians, Germans, Japanese or any national majority have the right to do so.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
A few points

Very learned stuff, about as good as it gets on this forum, imo (although I'm also impressed by that guy who seems to read hieroglyphics) .

Also really liked your comments about Muslim Terrorists; I have long been distressed and angry with the racist bile which is spewed everywhere about Muslims and Islam. Plus the drivel about the danger of Islamic terrorism which I come across daily. I live peacefully with Muslim neighbours, who I like and respect. I also lived in a Muslim Country (Malaysia ) I also read the Q'uran and studies aspects of Islamic culture at university. In this small area, I claim an informed opinion.

The term 'pagan' comes from the Latin word 'paganus'.Originally it referred to people who lived well away from roads.It simply meant 'countrty folk' or 'yokel' as a pejorative. Nothing to do with religious belief. It was taken by Christin ca 4th century , to mean 'heathen'.

Spot on about the plasticity of Christianity. Even the resurrection of which Christians are so proud was not original. The dying and reborn God has ben around for millennia, especially in agrarian societies, where the winter was associated with the death of the god and spring the rebirth. Perhaps the best known recorded story is that of Osiris; he was murdered by his brother Set, who chopped his body into pieces. His sister-wife Isis, collected the pieces and wrapped them together. She was unable to find the penis, so she added a wooden one. She then reanimated Osiris, and had sex with him. As a result, Isis gave birth to Horus.

I'm not sure how Christians would have originally sold the triune god Growing up Catholic , it always did my head in trying to understand. IE Jesu was "the Son of god, begotten but not made'. But at the same time, he was preexisting and eternal. (???????)

Although it seem strange to us now, not all ancient religions taught of an afterlife. Judaism doesn't talk much about an afterlife. The last response I got from a rabbi was' we prefer to concentrate on living from day to day.

I certainly see how a blissful afterlife would have appealed to women and slaves, who tended to have brief and unpleasant lives. Plus of course, early Christianity had not yet invented the notion of Hell. It comes from the Hebrew word "sheol", and means simply "place of the dead'.

The clip below is from my favourite Christian, former Anglican archbishop,John Shelby Spong: On hell as an invention of the church and the absurdity of claiming exclusive, absolute truth.
The guy is a huge embarrassment to the Anglican church, or as Robin Williams called it "Catholic lite"



 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
The above mentioned policy of your ancestors was not just reasonable, it was a patriotic attempt to preserve the ethnic demographics and cultural heritage of their nation. Australia as a nation was founded in the late 18th century by peoples of the British Isles. European peoples. They had every right to preserve their identity just as the French, Italians, Germans, Japanese or any national majority have the right to do so.

The White Australia policy was based on the widely held European views of racialism at that time. Those views allowed to colonial powers to exploit any different from themselves, especially if they were black or asian .These views justified the US and Canada excluding Chines Immigration.It was also used in the Southern United States to justify the enslavement of black people.

There is no innate right to the preservation of identity, although it may be a basic need. There is most certainly no existing right for the preservation of of identity through the exclusion of others.
I think you are conflating 'right' with ability and power. They are not the same. Neither does any country have an innate right to exist. A country does not have an objective reality. . Nations are [fairly recent] political constructs, subject to rapid change. Compare a political world map of today with a range of older maps. A country only exists for as long as it can maintain internal cohesion AND keep its neighbours at bay.


What about addressing the logical fallacy? Or your arrogance in presuming to tell me or anyone else what we should do?
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,945
here
If that's all you people have to offer as "culture", then I pitty you. No wonder you don't feel a connection to it and are almost ashamed of who you are, or just indifferent. But don't go about generalysing and assuming it's like this everywhere or that everyone should think the same as you. I for one am proud of my heritage, of my culture and our traditions. But I guess that is the difference between the perceived West and the rest of Europe (Central and Eastern Europe). The West has lost a lot of its culture and has been globalised (americanised) more than the eastern half of the continent, which due to the commy regimes, the iron curtain and a much smaller influx of foreigners and being a bit behind has retained more of its older cultural traits, which makes it looks culturally richer today and the people more appreciative of it. I think that also causes a bigger and bigger difference in how people evaluate these aspects of their identity, which can nicely be seen in the ways you and me feel about this matter.
Could you list some specific traditions, customs and elements of your culture that you've been able to hold onto?

And could you cite some examples of lost traditions and heritage in Western Europe?
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
"If that's all you people have to offer as "culture", then I pitty you."

Ad hominem attack, not an argument.

Define your terms.

I provided a fairly detailed explanation of the term culture, which is by the way, accepted academically, or at least was when I was at university
.
Seems you may have missed my explanation, so I'll repeat myself.

The term ';culture' means anything which is acquired rather than instinctive;. These things Include: Language, tools, cooking , writing, kinship terms, (Mother, father, sister ,brother, etc) clothing ,housing, laws, philosophy, ethics and morality, economic system, education, fine arts; mythology and religion. One's sense of identity is an artificial psychological construct ,which, along with 'country' has no objective reality., but is nevertheless deeply felt, and critical to our humanity imo.

It has always bemused me that so many people seem so proud of things which are simply accidents of birth. Such as place of birth and religion.

I've said before,I love my country, regardless of our many faults. That is because I was born her and have a powerful emotional connection. However, I do not believe there is anything unique or even terribly special about my country. Don't get me wrong, I would never choose to live anywhere else.

A more formal, and perhaps more complete explanation of the term, 'culture'

Culture (/ˈkʌltʃər/) is the social behavior and norms found in human societies. Culture is considered a central concept in anthropology, encompassing the range of phenomena that are transmitted through social learning in human societies. Cultural universals are found in all human societies; these include expressive forms like art, music, dance, ritual, religion, and technologies like tool usage, cooking, shelter, and clothing. The concept of material culture covers the physical expressions of culture, such as technology, architecture and art, whereas the immaterial aspects of culture such as principles of social organization (including practices of political organization and social institutions), mythology, philosophy, literature (both written and oral), and science comprise the intangible cultural heritage of a society.[1]

Culture - Wikipedia
 

Sindane

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,621
Europe
Good question. Have been thinking about this and think you're right.

My identification with an Irish-celt ethnicity is actually pretty vague. I can't explain what I mean by 'celt',except in broad historical terms, family tree, and perhaps DNA. If I could I'd be willing to bet my explanation would probably be different that of a native bornIrish person.

The term 'culture' means ANYTHING acquired rather than anything innate. It includes: kinship terms, language, clothing, cooking style, social organisation and politics, legal system, economic system,, fine arts, education system, and of course religion.

Added to this the reality that national /ethnic cultures to which we identify are not homogenous. Within societies, especially large ones, there are differences in a range of things. EG as an urbanite, my vague understanding of Australian culture is probably a lot different than say that of a country person of any number of varieties (eg' townie', farmer, grazier, Jackeroo/Jillaroo, seasonal worker). PLUS 'culture' is dynamic, fluid, so any definitions/ explanations need to be constantly revised.

Over many years I've known a lot of people whose parents came out from Say Italy or Greece. They told me of the profound culture shock experienced by their parents on returning home 30-40 years later.--The countries of their youth no longer existed.

So, it seems I may claim Irish ancestry and being a celt from descriptive perspective, in working out from whence ancestors came ; before Ireland, Scotland andWales; Gaul. Before Gaul; an area the Romans called "Germania'

Being brutally honest, my feelings of Irishness are deeply sentimental, but do not have any kind of objective reality. Of course that doesn't mean I will abandon those feelings.


Why do people insist on a cultural identity. I think identification with a family, religion, school, organisation, country or culture or ethnicity all meet a basic human need; the need need to belong. I think this is innate and powerful, as we have a greater chance of survival as a member of a group.
Yes and maybe I was a little harsh on 'culture'


If that's all you people have to offer as "culture", then I pitty you.
I wasn't referring to my own culture though. I was talking about 'culture' in general

No wonder you don't feel a connection to it and are almost ashamed of who you are, or just indifferent.
I am just not sure what I am supposed to feel a connection too and I am not ashamed of who I am. Where did I imply that?

But don't go about generalysing and assuming it's like this everywhere or that everyone should think the same as you. I for one am proud of my heritage, of my culture and our traditions. But I guess that is the difference between the perceived West and the rest of Europe (Central and Eastern Europe). The West has lost a lot of its culture and has been globalised (americanised) more than the eastern half of the continent, which due to the commy regimes, the iron curtain and a much smaller influx of foreigners and being a bit behind has retained more of its older cultural traits, which makes it looks culturally richer today and the people more appreciative of it. I think that also causes a bigger and bigger difference in how people evaluate these aspects of their identity, which can nicely be seen in the ways you and me feel about this matter.
What I am proud of is my country's laws but this is not the same as culture. My problem is that I don't know what is meant by the term 'culture' anymore.
I agree about it becoming 'Americanised'. In New York on Saint Patricks day there are parades of so called 'Irish Americans' in green tartan kilts, playing bagpipes, what is this to do with Irish culture or a traditional Irish Saint Patricks day? What has the American food corned beef and cabbage got to do with it? What is dying a river green to do with it? It is a bastardisation of culture. It is manufactured culture
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,359
Lower Styria, Slovenia
Could you list some specific traditions, customs and elements of your culture that you've been able to hold onto?

And could you cite some examples of lost traditions and heritage in Western Europe?
For starters (reffering to both your points):

[...] Wear animal skins and jump about like an iron age ape[.] [...] lazily drink coffee all day and order women and children about to fetch water [.]



Yes and maybe I was a little harsh on 'culture'

I wasn't referring to my own culture though. I was talking about 'culture' in general

I am just not sure what I am supposed to feel a connection too and I am not ashamed of who I am. Where did I imply that?

What I am proud of is my country's laws but this is not the same as culture. My problem is that I don't know what is meant by the term 'culture' anymore.
I agree about it becoming 'Americanised'. In New York on Saint Patricks day there are parades of so called 'Irish Americans' in green tartan kilts, playing bagpipes, what is this to do with Irish culture or a traditional Irish Saint Patricks day? What has the American food corned beef and cabbage got to do with it? What is dying a river green to do with it? It is a bastardisation of culture. It is manufactured culture
Sorry, I misunderetood you there (the part about culture in general).

I agree with you about St Patrick's Day and similar, it does seem a bit over the top, especially considering all the people with very dubious Irish heritage ...
 
Likes: Sindane

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
4,948
It's like the Swedish Romantic poet Esaias Tegnér put it in a poem ("Song on 5 April 1836"):

"All culture rests on unfree ground / once only Barbarism was patriotic,
But reason was planted, / language, hard as iron, broken."

Or as the French 19th c. historian Ernest Renan put it ("What is a nation?" 1875): All national history depends on the ability to forget most of the actual history of each and every nation. Memory here is VERY selective.

If we didn't, we'd have to recall when someplace wasn't a nation yet. That process of recognition of CHANGE doesn't actually stop, until we run out information and up against a wall of our own unknowing about what happened before. Except by inference by then we need to conclude change was already taking place.

Change is the nature of history.
 
Jun 2016
1,656
England, 200 yards from Wales
It's like the Swedish Romantic poet Esaias Tegnér put it in a poem ("Song on 5 April 1836"):

"All culture rests on unfree ground / once only Barbarism was patriotic,
But reason was planted, / language, hard as iron, broken."

Or as the French 19th c. historian Ernest Renan put it ("What is a nation?" 1875): All national history depends on the ability to forget most of the actual history of each and every nation. Memory here is VERY selective.

If we didn't, we'd have to recall when someplace wasn't a nation yet. That process of recognition of CHANGE doesn't actually stop, until we run out information and up against a wall of our own unknowing about what happened before. Except by inference by then we need to conclude change was already taking place.

Change is the nature of history.
Exactly, to talk of a culture as though it were (or could be) fixed or preserved is a bit unhistorical, cultures change all the time for many reasons, immigration or demographic change is only one.
From a UK point of view, the massive changes in the 'culture' over the last few centuries weren't driven by population change, yet (fortunately) bull-baiting is gone , child labour, locking up homosexuals, unthinking deference to the so-called socially superior - etc etc etc.
There has been a good deal of immigration in my lifetime (since 1950), though not as much as some people think, but the biggest changes I see in the way of life come not from that but from the universal American influence.
 
Status
Closed

Similar History Discussions