Why Pakistan chose Urdu over Persian as it's National Language ?

Feb 2019
88
Mumbai
#31
Pakistanis tends to claim that Urdu came from Central Asia. Its quite bizarre how they want to delink themselves with anything that has native origin to India.
Over the last 5 years or so, I am increasingly seeing Pakistanis claim 'Indus' origin and that Pakistan is a continuation of 'Indus' civilization. To be honest this is certainly better than claiming perso-arabic/central asian origin especially when 75% or so pakistanis will not be able to have a normal conversation with either arabs or persians.
 
Likes: Dewal
Feb 2019
88
Mumbai
#33
Pakistanis: urdu came from persia

Indians: urdu was made in one day by persian mughals

not very varying opinions tbh.

regards
That's not the claim, the claim (whether one agrees or not) is that urdu was born as a result of mixture of perso-arabic vocabuary with khariboli. These things do not occur in a day, but languages are dynamic and it does not take too long for a distinct language to emerge. Given that urdu was born during the Mughal era (who were persianized) it is natural that people may credit mughals for it (regardless of how true or false it is). I am not aware of how much research has been done on Urdu, though it seems increasingly likely that Urdu as we know it today is largely born in 1700's.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,206
India
#34
Pakistanis: urdu came from persia

Indians: urdu was made in one day by persian mughals

not very varying opinions tbh.

regards
The use of Pidgin of Khariboli with Persian was encouraged by Mughals emperors and nobles in their court, it didn't originate as a spoken language in the street of Delhi. That's why it is referred as the language of the Camp.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,206
India
#35
Over the last 5 years or so, I am increasingly seeing Pakistanis claim 'Indus' origin and that Pakistan is a continuation of 'Indus' civilization. To be honest this is certainly better than claiming perso-arabic/central asian origin especially when 75% or so pakistanis will not be able to have a normal conversation with either arabs or persians.
I too have heard it. But its quite bizarre to believe that Punjabis and Sindhis historically had a separate Indus identity.
 
#36
The use of Pidgin of Khariboli with Persian was encouraged by Mughals emperors and nobles in their court, it didn't originate as a spoken language in the street of Delhi. That's why it is referred as the language of the Camp.
mate, urdu word has been described by many people in many different ways, urdu e moala has also been described as a languge born out of streets/markets, turkic soldier army camps and in your case, mughal courts.

to me i dont think that khariboli was influenced in the court and became a separate language and then became popular as every muslin north indian was speaking it, sorry mate, dont buy this theory.

probably muslims were bilingual in hindi and persian and urdu resulted as a mixture after a long period of exposure.

regards
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,206
India
#37
mate, urdu word has been described by many people in many different ways, urdu e moala has also been described as a languge born out of streets/markets, turkic soldier army camps and in your case, mughal courts.

to me i dont think that khariboli was influenced in the court and became a separate language and then became popular as every muslin north indian was speaking it, sorry mate, dont buy this theory.

probably muslims were bilingual in hindi and persian and urdu resulted as a mixture after a long period of exposure.

regards
The Persianization was encouraged by Mughals in poetry and music, it was not a natural Persianization, its a fact. The colloquial Hindi or Urdu whatever you call it, has only small amount of Persian words. In old bollywood movies, people will say Tashreef Rakhiye but the colloquial version people will say "baithiye"(pls sit), the former seems quite bizarre in spoken language.
 
Feb 2019
88
Mumbai
#38
mate, urdu word has been described by many people in many different ways, urdu e moala has also been described as a languge born out of streets/markets, turkic soldier army camps and in your case, mughal courts.

to me i dont think that khariboli was influenced in the court and became a separate language and then became popular as every muslin north indian was speaking it, sorry mate, dont buy this theory.

probably muslims were bilingual in hindi and persian and urdu resulted as a mixture after a long period of exposure.

regards
Most muslims is north india were not fluent in urdu since they largely came from pastoral/lower caste background. Probably no more than 2-3% of native population was fluent in persian.
 
#39
The Persianization was encouraged by Mughals in poetry and music, it was not a natural Persianization, its a fact. The colloquial Hindi or Urdu whatever you call it, has only small amount of Persian words. In old bollywood movies, people will say Tashreef Rakhiye but the colloquial version people will say "baithiye"(pls sit), the former seems quite bizarre in spoken language.
no mate, im not sure about hindi even the common words in urdu have a lot of persian words, i do know that there are a lot of both persian and prakrit words in urdu for instance suraj/shams, chand/qamar, aag/atish, but still if we subtract the persian words for which we have prakrit word there are aweful lot of persian words for which there simply isnt any prakritic substitute. There were also persian words which were especially constructed for indian subcontinent use, for instance pajama, darbar/court etc, durbar is a word which is even used in nepal which had no islamic occupation like their durbar square, durbar is a word not attested in persian language itself and has been formed by two persian words like dar for door. All this seem to indicate persian seeping through prakrit for a long period of time, durbar is also attested first in pre mughal era of tughlaq sultanate, so you dont try to blame mughals for this. There are also minor attestation of prakrit seeping through persian for instance kurtah, which is a sanskrit word, it is thought that kurtah is simply persian word loaned in prakrit but i think its the other way around. pajama was constructed in india and was adopted by persians, so there is even an evidence a persian word being constructed moving westward into its native persia. Persian language was also adopted by the sikh empire, why would they do it, if no for persian becoming an elite language not only for the muslims but also for the non muslims of ISC?

regards
 
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#40
Most muslims is north india were not fluent in urdu since they largely came from pastoral/lower caste background. Probably no more than 2-3% of native population was fluent in persian.
so what was the lower caste muslim language, austronesean or dravidian, mate lets not go to castism, as we know it can get very bad upto the aryan migration level. These arguments have been used against indian in a very similar manner like AIT or AMT.

regards
 
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