Why Pakistan chose Urdu over Persian as it's National Language ?

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Closed
Feb 2019
88
Mumbai
#51
Urdu is the Muslim variant of Hindi, Hindus have their own linguistic traditions with Hindi. Urdu is an Indian heritage and Indians should oppose Pakistanis from stealing Indian heritage either its Urdu or cuisine that origin from Indian cities like Delhi, Lucknow or Hyderabad. If common religion give them right to claim Urdu, then Albanian or Azeri language can also become Pakistan's national language.
Interestingly, even 'Mughlai' cuisine is almost 100% native, a lot of what is passed of as 'Foreign' isnt foreign at all, just like biryani.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,700
India
#52
Interestingly, even 'Mughlai' cuisine is almost 100% native, a lot of what is passed of as 'Foreign' isnt foreign at all, just like biryani.
Biryani is only a Persian word but no such ancestral dish of Biryani ever existed in Iran. Beside this, Mughal cuisine was not all known in Pakistan until Urdu speaking migrants from North India took them to Pakistan.
 
Likes: Kamayani
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#54
the debate that mughlai cuisine is central asian/persian influenced is only shoved by eurocentric scholars who clearly seem to have an agenda to declare indian cuisine as ''western influenced'', they dont believe that such a cuisine can be developed by indians themselves so they needed a helping hand of the western people.

nearly every debate about india post islamic follows european centred views with minimum research and bing in denial, you can observe the same trend through out indian history.

gulab jamun has been declared ''persian'' just because it has the word ''gulab'' in it, jalebi is delcared as arabic since europeans argue the word seems to resemble zulabiya of western asia. there has been no effort to dig the actual ingredients of the dish from historic sources and compare them together.

the standard operating procedure is to read if the dish appears in indo islamic cook book, must be persian/arabic, dishes such as jalebi which dont apper are declared persian any how based on assumption that it is derived from the word ''zulabiya''.

i was debating the same with european wikipedia users, that if this is the norm, why is pulao which is a sanskrit word not declared indian based on the name, and the answer is, ''pulao'' recipe is first mentioned in arab and persian books, but funny thing is, the name ''pulao'' is never mentioned and it is assumed that its a pulao recipe.

so its just a eurocentric scholarship founded on biased europeans who probably have indophobia and nothing else.

if you go to the article ''curry'' you will see a deliberate mischief of inserting roman black pepper seasoning in its history, some eurocentric people even try claiming curry as ''roman'' invention. i think eurocentrism is much worse than even afrocentrism.

regards
 
Last edited:
Likes: Kamayani

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,700
India
#55
the debate that mughlai cuisine is central asian/persian influenced is only shoved by eurocentric scholars who clearly seem to have an agenda to declare indian cuisine as ''western influenced'', they dont believe that such a cuisine can be developed by indians themselves so they needed a helping hand of the western people.

nearly every debate about india post islamic follows european centred views with minimum research and bing in denial, you can observe the same trend through out indian history.

gulab jamun has been declared ''persian'' just because it has the word ''gulab'' in it, jalebi is delcared as arabic since europeans argue the word seems to resemble zulabiya of western asia. there has been no effort to dig the actual ingredients of the dish from historic sources and compare them together.

the standard operating procedure is to read if the dish appears in indo islamic cook book, must be persian/arabic, dishes such as jalebi which dont apper are declared persian any how based on assumption that it is derived from the word ''zulabiya''.

i was debating the same with european wikipedia users, that if this is the norm, why is pulao which is a sanskrit word not declared indian based on the name, and the answer is, ''pulao'' recipe is first mentioned in arab and persian books, but funny thing is, the name ''pulao'' is never mentioned and it is assumed that its a pulao recipe.

so its just a eurocentric scholarship founded on biased europeans who probably have indophobia and nothing else.

if you go to the article ''curry'' you will see a deliberate mischief of inserting roman black pepper seasoning in its history, some eurocentric people even try claiming curry as ''roman'' invention. i think eurocentrism is much worse than even afrocentrism.

regards
interesting thing, they can't name the ancestral dish to gulab jamun. Gulab Jamun can be traced to Bengali-Oriya cuisine instead. Even Paneer is claimed of foreign origin but Paneer is popular in Indian cuisine only.
 
Apr 2019
406
India
#56
it is not much different than lets say subhash kak claiming that the yazidis are ancient hindus or should i say infact far worse, seeing how a hindu yogi CM of UP stopped the maintenance of taj mahal and claiming that the monument had nothing to do with the indian culture and how all india's islamic history ruthlessly discarded, i would rather say that the identity crises of the indians is far worse than pakistanis, atleast pakistanis are owning their pre islamic scholars, will hindus ever own lets say amir khusrow etc while they keep owning total strangers like yazidhis, mayans as ''vedic people'' etc.

regards
Wait. You need to make better comparisons next time. How many people in India take Subhash Kak seriously? How big is his following?
Is he in anyway responsible for writing the narrative of Indian history?

Wait. Facepalm.
Don't Hindu like to own every Indian muslim who has contributed to it's culture? I read likes of Malik Mohammed Jayasi and Abdul Raheem Khan-e-khana in my school. Nobody doubts contribution of Ameer Khusrau. How many of us love to delight in the poetry of Mirza Ghalib.
You have very skewed idea about psyche of Indian people.
But if you ask us to sing praises of mauraders who took great pride in cutting heads of the 'infidels' then I'm sorry we can't do that.

Don't worry about Taj. It'll always be maintained because it brings revenue for the government and it has a fake love story attached to it. Islamic architecture is always given better preference by Indian governments even though there maybe be possibility of having an Indian temple/educational center beneath it. Meanwhile they steal the money from the temples and so most of them are in dilapidated state.

Indian history books give unfairly large coverage to foreign invaders while white-washing their crimes. No self respecting country does it.

because hindus are living with millions of muslims, who have ruled india for hundreds of years and have left their permanent foot print on indian culture, now deal with it.

regards
You are wrong muslims living in India are not foreigners and nobody is stopping them to take pride in the Islmic contribution of India. Pride is an intrinsic value and Indian people somehow still manages to maintain it even though they were living like second class citizens under successive foreign rulers. Why can't Indian muslim have it while living in secular and democratic India?
But it can't be shoved under throat of other people who are not intreseted?

Doesn't matter how ugly your mother is you will always like her better than beautiful mother of your friends. You have to deal with it !
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#57
Khos Amded


Welcome to Urdu History 101 lesson. Also know as Urdu Adab ek Virasat


I must say you guys have done a great, intellectual conversation here. Might I suggest wakie app, you can discuss in conference call with relevant people.


Urdu. Or rightly pronunciations as Ordu.


History (Herstory):


Background - Prakrit based languages exist, after Aryans invade native Indians and get naturalized themselves. Various types of prakrit in existence.


New Invaders (wrongly interpreted Islamic)... Ghazni, Ghurid. And finally... A politically stable Dehli Sultanat.


All persianized, yet not persian Invaders.Persianate culture introduced since Ghazni. The term sindh now pronounced as Hind.


The same event as Aryan conquest occurs. Instead of vedic sanskrit this time it's Dari Persian.


A new prakrit (get it) formed via apramabhasha now known as hindavi.


Dehli Sultanat moves it's capital south! Kaboom


The story of Deccani, A tongue untied begins




Ruler goes **** Dehli is where it at let's go back. Enlightened people be like naw man we cool here... New languages, diversity and distinct food and stuff yo!


Bahmani Sultanat established. Those people are like yo we stayed back to be grounded. So no high full of yourself persian grandeur. We know a bita sanskritis now so yee haw. Dakshin biatch. Now say it in Hindavi Dakhan. Wait up we ain't in Hind(Indus) no more. So Dakhini yeah? Slick make it official


Bahmanis got too good for their own sake. Enter reverse enlightenment aka corruption. Now the cheif ministers be like man our PM's drunk on nirvana let's get some moksha!


Bam. Deccan Sultanates. They be like hey yo people speaking different languages so you guys like 5 states ok. Oooh Vijayanagar Kingdom. Yo these guys respect diversity but don't mix not coool. Let's go ultimate alliance.


Deccan vs Dravidian. Finishing move!


Meanwhile Dehli Sultanat be like damn Mughal E Azam incoming (wish they had video cams and made a documentary instead huh)


Back in Deccan. After the win. Dude like we got Sanskrit, Persian, Turkish, Arabic, Turkik now african languages also so many Dravidian including Marathi (was Dravidian those days, explain in a bit) so guys do one thing each kingdom just make it based on one of them yeah we cool.


Some Deccan states realise but this is not distinct. Let's conquer that state then. Meanwhile Akbar messenger, "Jahan pana, they got like unity in diversity and playing 5 states oops 4 states game" Akbar be like lemme solve jodha first so they'll make my movie. But yo din e illah hi. Coz I'm high and mighty Persian darbari. Direct unity of diversity ok?


Jahjangir time. You, you blackie. Sends prince. Crows and kites statement. Deccanis be like yo we Turks too but eat salt and came, so no thanks.


Cometh Aurangzeb. Mr. Azab! Mwahaha. I'm be called Alamgir mmmhmmm. Sees no persian in deccan. Learns all local languages. Retains Persian. Now same thing as Aryan invasion. Another prakrit descendant called hindostani or as the mighty Islamist sees it HINDUSTANI comes outta Dakhini mixed with Mughal Persian.


Shivaji be like this dude is too much Imma out of deccan Sultanat. He gonna make it all persian. So Imma do sanskrit now. Advent of hindutva. Farzand! (Persian word ironically only exists in Marathi now)


Why you ask? Aurangzeb wins all. Introduces persian. Back at Dehli Taj Mahal got ready! Oh Agra aga.


Wali Dakhni be like shivaji played aryan invader copy without invasion. Deccani no more it's hindostani now. But I'll take Deccani to Dehli 1700.


Poets be wow dude earth mud language you made such awesome work. But you know taj mahal not earth mud but marble and precious stone.


Say hello to rekhta, coz persian speakers struggled with deccani. Another semi prakrit incident. Meanwhile mass is speaking Hindustani due to Aurangzeb effect. Slowly distinct variants.


Poets finally crack it in Dehli. Zaban E Urdu E mualla coz they an exalted camp. Persian now fully Desi in South all poets brought it and so Urdu is a romantic language aka Mughal grandeur.


Eventually Bahadur Shah Zafar people are like no grandeur so just cut it short to Urdu ok we just a horde now. No more exalted camp.


British do magic trick, Avengers age of Ultron style. Hindi, Hindoo, Hinduistan. Ooo


Marathas be like damn it's too much now. We're fine with Hindustani as its now hindi. Lucknow nawab coughs muaf me with takalluf but Urdu is now Nawabi Lucknow flavour.


The rest we know. Muslim league.


Dil walon ke dil ka qaraar lotne hum aaye hai UP bihar lootne.


But all they got was Napak Pakistan and Bengali no chappals.


Then they be like Takleef I did but please muaf imma stay in India it's too far for our fat asses.


Partition. Hindi-Urdu split. Bollywood. Coz marathas ok with Hindustani remember.


Btw pak anthem is in Mughal Persian (Not Desi) except for the word ka.


Coming back Thackeray happens. But before? Persian and Sanskrit used to be one language. You can google it. The difference was exactly similar to hindi Urdu.


History repeats itself. And it will again. Another invasion another division, another Thackeray.


What else? Oh yeah Deccanis can't do standard Urdu well coz well freaking bahmanis as a policy... I mean didn't you understand what I wrote so far?

A lament Dakhini – All is just Dust and Gold
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,700
India
#58
Urdu and Hindi are based upon Khariboli dialect, a Western Hindi dialect native to Delhi, Western Uttar Pradesh, parts of Haryana and Uttarakhand. The Muslim rule didn't invent any new language but sprinkle their foreign languages word into Khariboli what we know as Urdu today.

The Muslims in South India in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Telangana and Northern Tamil Nadu speak Deccani Urdu at home while Hindus speak Dravidian languages. Deccani Urdu is influenced by Marathi and somewhat rustic in speech compared to Urdu from North India.
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#59
Urdu and Hindi are based upon Khariboli dialect, a Western Hindi dialect native to Delhi, Western Uttar Pradesh, parts of Haryana and Uttarakhand. The Muslim rule didn't invent any new language but sprinkle their foreign languages word into Khariboli what we know as Urdu today.

The Muslims in South India in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Telangana and Northern Tamil Nadu speak Deccani Urdu at home while Hindus speak Dravidian languages. Deccani Urdu is influenced by Marathi and somewhat rustic in speech compared to Urdu from North India.
What's with the quote is that vedic?

Hindavi was khadiboli based yes. I mentioned prakrit. So its a boli a lect.

Obviously cant invent language but communicate.

Europeans and africans communicated with native americans and american english was born.

Same way the persiante people communicated with indus people and hindavi was born.

Indeed from khadi boli which itself comes from apramabhasha to modern hindustani there is mutual intelligibility.

Persian in Dari form introduced sweetness and made it hindavi along with sprinkling of pure arabic and turkik languages

I, a deccani myself can confirm what you said but includes maharashtra as well especially marathwada and southern parts of it. Basically deccani is entire deccan.

Since ordu means horde and deccani lost political power they attached urdu to their boli (lect) during bahadur shah safar times which is after the wide usage and official status of urdu started in mughal official ending british starting period

Not all deccani are muslims and not all dravidian are hindu. There is a significant population which form a minority in these races as per religion.

There are more deccani speakers overall than muslim speakers of it. Similarly dravidian converts to islam also speak dravidian language especially in south tamil nadu and malabar coastal and kerala region.

Indeed majority defines the identity of a language. A good example will be urdu speaking jews and christian in pakistan who very mother tongue is urdu and who didn't convert from islam obviously as pakistan was made for muslims. They read files in urdu and practice their religion in the same.

devanagiri and the sanskrit filled artificial language that is hindi is strangely clearly brahmins based hindu and you'll see christian in hindi regions use urdu in latin or devanagiri. The syntax is clearly hindustani (which is urdu as is evident by the za and pha sounds. Or they use english. They most definitely do not use hindi.


Deccani is a natural language unlike standard urdu which came to be a darbari language. As such its development via literature stopped after aurangzeb. Later on Mysore and Hyderabad kingdom did try.

I believe the deccani kings and queens were not into grandeur as is evident by their architecture.

The Mughals tried to create heaven on earth. And as such standard urdu is heavenly, especially as seen in Fanaa movie around agra. The lect speaks with grandeur.

The deccani being grounded and more earthly meanwhile would seem rustic but realistic as people don't have airs about them.

In standard urdu poems you'll see people speak and write poems as if they are angels descended. Deccani is human.

There is a very famous line after mughal conquest that some deccani people tried to get all sophisticated and a poet then wrote," tu dakhini hai re pyare tu dakhich bol" awakening them to ground realities.

The only time deccani would use standard urdu is when a formal situation demands it or when a sort of respect is commanded. And i've notice they use the literary urdu which is what we call saaf urdu. Most standard urdu speakers don't.

Zany Outbursts: Kya ba so ba – Learning to speak south-indian urdu

Akin to shakespeare english.

Deccani unfortunately is not understood north of the vidhyas no matter how similar the words the emotions are different. Thus I use saaf urdu which makes people say why are you saying shayari when I am actually not. Some deccani use shuddh hindi depending on education but most are literature in urdu. This shuddh hindi users are mostly non-muslims.

Coming to pakistani urdu or purdu which is very much a bad sounding urdu to a native speaker as as rightly put ghaleez e pak urdu. Since its native language of muhajir migrants who are only 7 percent population the majority are second language speakers and they define the identity.

A very conscious effort to remove sanskrit and add arabic is done. And similarly in north india keeping with mughal tradition, sanskrit and persian instead of arabic are preferred (except for oudh lucknow region where arabic and persian are preferred over sanskrit as the region has people who speak like yogi aditynath, so its self preservation of nawab aka oudh culture as ayodhya culture is also in the same region. So these people would speak saaf urdu, and this is what deccani use in formal. They just mostly remove the religious vedic sanskrit words and add the same from quranic arabic foosha.

As for the people of pakistan they expected to be the mughal successor but its a failed state that didn't complete their dream. Thus their language represents the same. Its the same as the hindi of BIMARU states.

They don't not understand even standard urdu unless they come from urdu medium.

In UAE one of my paki friends, a pathan, said that I use very good urdu words aka saaf urdu. Paki normally don't under pure urdu but they do understand manak hindi which is filled with curses. And since most are descendants of hindu converts it makes sense.

The language of mohalla assi but think if its arabicised instead of sanskritized

Alas I digress, the people of that country are napaki and their purdu is like paad(fart) on the urdu language.

They definately don't have the adab or tehzeeb that urdu carries with it.

Im taking of the masses not the educated. Its as painful to hear as a hindi or more correctly hindustani speaker of BIMARU states are.

So to finally answer, there is no way pakistan will use persian. They did try through their anthem and symbols. But that's the muhajirs. And they are not the majority. So majority prefer arabic.

They dont use nastaliq anymore much which is the indian type or persian script. They use naskh especially online, which is the arabic script.

Oh I have gone through such a pain to get nastaliq on my phone and tablet. Look.

P.S: I forgot a link which I had to put once I remember I will. Naskk is painful to an Urdu speaker that has Adab and Tehzeeb

Nastaliq is not just another script...

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