Why Pakistan chose Urdu over Persian as it's National Language ?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
19,746
SoCal
#61
Gandhari were Indo-Aryan not Irani as far as i know. And Almost 25% of Pakistan is Iranic and Person was used by even sikh empire till 18th century shows persian wasnt an alien language to 25%Iranics +45% Punjabis. I know some punjabi from pakistan who have living grand parents who can speak Person like Native iranians.
Pakistan also had tens of millions of Bengalis before 1971. What connection did they actually have with Persian?
 
Likes: Aupmanyav
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#62
Pakistan also had tens of millions of Bengalis before 1971. What connection did they actually have with Persian?
Entire kingdoms of north india adapted to use persian including non muslim ones.

Persian in those days was akin to what english is today. A global language of the east (There was ni internet thus no global reach) but still it reached to all Europe and many sanskrit works were translated.

Sanskrit as a language was rarely spoken by this time. It was fault of Brahmins who didn't wanna share and kept all knowledge to themselves and forced to reveal to elites/nobles/rulers.

The population south of vindhyas was not involved in partition at all. The Nizam's Hyderabad doesn't count as it was vassal of the the Mughals that got independent but clearly didn't aprove of local Urdu dialect or Telugu or the native Deccani cultures.

There is huge resentment of Urdu in Bengal as I've explained the region didn't have much to do with passage of Urdu. It did with Persian. But not Urdu.

Persianized standard Urdu was well accepted. But not at the cost of Bengali. East pakistan was only made of Bangali ethnic group and thus no diversity.

Urdu signifies diversity as is evident that it's speakers are the only people in the country of India that are 100 percent bilingual that is accomodating of regional language which itself is the very essence of Urdu and leads to various dialects influenced of said language.

Most of pakistani have more closer roots to urdu as well as dari persian. And that region being the first place for conquest entry was heavily persianized already and majority Muslim as well. It is no surprise that Punjabi accent dominates Urdu in Pakistan as Deccani early stages were Punjabi mixed with Hindavi.

Sindhis have to this day resented urdu and have tried to force the muhajirs to learn Sindhi but to no effect. Also noted that Urdu was language in Punjabi that is Hindavi influenced by Punjabi and Persian as well as Arabic, the much later during sikh religion advent.

The majority of pakistanis have no love for Urdu and accept that it's a common link language that can easily come closest to Arabic removing sanskrit. I've personally talked to many of them and they don't like proper Urdu. But the localised paki Urdu.

It's due to lack of education indeed. But that would mean preservation big local native culture. Muhajirs suffer from English education issue which influences their Hindi-Urdu. But since they don't have a culture to really preserve they have no issues, as they already spat on it when leaving India.

Just other day I read about millions of Bihari being left behind in Bangladesh and Pakistan taking no responsibility for them.

Bangladesh people do pick up hindi rather than Urdu easily as Bengali is tatsama sanskrit influenced.

I personally had one dude who wanted to learn Urdu and I had such a hard time helping him pronounce some sounds. Needless to say they do understand and speak Manak Hindi form and not Hindustani aka unaltered original Urdu.

They have heavy usage of Arabic and thus their pronunciation has been influenced by it more than Persian especially since British banned Persian and they captured Bengal province as one of the first.

Hindustani was official even in Bengal in nastaliq script those days. Yet the onus was on bengali and arabic.

Also looking back at History the nawabs tried to stay independent from Mughal and staying away from Persian was key to that.
 
Likes: peccavi
Apr 2019
406
India
#63
Entire kingdoms of north india adapted to use persian including non muslim ones.

Persian in those days was akin to what english is today. A global language of the east (There was ni internet thus no global reach) but still it reached to all Europe and many sanskrit works were translated.

Sanskrit as a language was rarely spoken by this time. It was fault of Brahmins who didn't wanna share and kept all knowledge to themselves and forced to reveal to elites/nobles/rulers.

The population south of vindhyas was not involved in partition at all. The Nizam's Hyderabad doesn't count as it was vassal of the the Mughals that got independent but clearly didn't aprove of local Urdu dialect or Telugu or the native Deccani cultures.

There is huge resentment of Urdu in Bengal as I've explained the region didn't have much to do with passage of Urdu. It did with Persian. But not Urdu.

Persianized standard Urdu was well accepted. But not at the cost of Bengali. East pakistan was only made of Bangali ethnic group and thus no diversity.

Urdu signifies diversity as is evident that it's speakers are the only people in the country of India that are 100 percent bilingual that is accomodating of regional language which itself is the very essence of Urdu and leads to various dialects influenced of said language.

Most of pakistani have more closer roots to urdu as well as dari persian. And that region being the first place for conquest entry was heavily persianized already and majority Muslim as well. It is no surprise that Punjabi accent dominates Urdu in Pakistan as Deccani early stages were Punjabi mixed with Hindavi.

Sindhis have to this day resented urdu and have tried to force the muhajirs to learn Sindhi but to no effect. Also noted that Urdu was language in Punjabi that is Hindavi influenced by Punjabi and Persian as well as Arabic, the much later during sikh religion advent.

The majority of pakistanis have no love for Urdu and accept that it's a common link language that can easily come closest to Arabic removing sanskrit. I've personally talked to many of them and they don't like proper Urdu. But the localised paki Urdu.

It's due to lack of education indeed. But that would mean preservation big local native culture. Muhajirs suffer from English education issue which influences their Hindi-Urdu. But since they don't have a culture to really preserve they have no issues, as they already spat on it when leaving India.

Just other day I read about millions of Bihari being left behind in Bangladesh and Pakistan taking no responsibility for them.

Bangladesh people do pick up hindi rather than Urdu easily as Bengali is tatsama sanskrit influenced.

I personally had one dude who wanted to learn Urdu and I had such a hard time helping him pronounce some sounds. Needless to say they do understand and speak Manak Hindi form and not Hindustani aka unaltered original Urdu.

They have heavy usage of Arabic and thus their pronunciation has been influenced by it more than Persian especially since British banned Persian and they captured Bengal province as one of the first.

Hindustani was official even in Bengal in nastaliq script those days. Yet the onus was on bengali and arabic.

Also looking back at History the nawabs tried to stay independent from Mughal and staying away from Persian was key to that.
Persian was only limited to mughal courts. It was never used by general population who spoke different dialects of Prakrits. Almost all of Indian languages/dialects are heavily Sanskritized so it's natural that we would prefer to speak standard Hindi. Moreover Sanskrit was true lingua franca of subcontinent. All of technical vocabulary of Indian languages is derived from Sanskrit and we still use Sanskrit to create new words.
It's superstition that 'evil' brahmins kept Sanskrit to themselves. On the contrary Sanskrit schools were operating(though not in their full glory) even when Brits took control of the subcontinent. Infact they wanted to keep Sanskrit as medium of education but then missionaries jumped in the picture and since then English was imposed on us. Best way to disconnect people from their roots is to disconnect them from their language.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,585
India
#64
Pakistan also had tens of millions of Bengalis before 1971. What connection did they actually have with Persian?
Persian was the court language of Mughals but many Islamic Sultanates in India. But Bengal was far away from Punjab, so Persian cultural and linguistic influence too rare on them. It continued to have lots of Sanskrit based vocabulary and an Brahmic script. After creation of Pakistan, both Urdu and Bengali were given national language status but later attempts were made to remove Bengali from official language and attempt were made to change the script to Arabic, this was resented and lead to allout language riots in East Pakistan. West Pakistani elite Bengali as a Hindu language.
 
Likes: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
19,746
SoCal
#65
Persian was the court language of Mughals but many Islamic Sultanates in India. But Bengal was far away from Punjab, so Persian cultural and linguistic influence too rare on them. It continued to have lots of Sanskrit based vocabulary and an Brahmic script. After creation of Pakistan, both Urdu and Bengali were given national language status but later attempts were made to remove Bengali from official language and attempt were made to change the script to Arabic, this was resented and lead to allout language riots in East Pakistan. West Pakistani elite Bengali as a Hindu language.
You mean "viewed Bengali as a Hindu language", correct? Also, were both Urdu and Bengali initially written in the Hindi script?
 
Jun 2014
5,568
New Delhi, India
#66
IMHO, Urdu always used the Arabic script. But then, the language in Hindu states had a Sanskrit base (even Urdu has a Sanskrit base; all its verbs are from Sanskrit, Hasna, Khana, Rona, Gana, Dhona) with lots of words words from Persian and Arabic. It could be written in whatever was the local script. The old Indian Penal Code is interesting to read.
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#67
Persian was only limited to mughal courts. It was never used by general population who spoke different dialects of Prakrits. Almost all of Indian languages/dialects are heavily Sanskritized so it's natural that we would prefer to speak standard Hindi. Moreover Sanskrit was true lingua franca of subcontinent. All of technical vocabulary of Indian languages is derived from Sanskrit and we still use Sanskrit to create new words.
It's superstition that 'evil' brahmins kept Sanskrit to themselves. On the contrary Sanskrit schools were operating(though not in their full glory) even when Brits took control of the subcontinent. Infact they wanted to keep Sanskrit as medium of education but then missionaries jumped in the picture and since then English was imposed on us. Best way to disconnect people from their roots is to disconnect them from their language.
Persian was not just in Mughal courts but it was indeed the language of the educated, along with sanskrit and in many cases Arabic

Nobody speaks standard hindi except for oudh region and the 'courtly' offical people of dehli.

Manak hindi can pass off as a natural language in case of Brahmins but shuddh hindi is just not natural.

Languages cannot and should not be made and thus when the majority doesn't speak sanskrit it makes no sense adding words which are not popular. English is popular. And naturally a new language called Hinglish, among other varieties has evolved.

If sanskrit was not kept to Brahmins it would be well spoken into modern times as the most spoken language but that's not the case the only pan indian language is indeed Urdu and it's bolis.

The standard hindi you refer to is HINDUSTANI in the urdu syntax. And it's rather very clear the the lack of ability to pronounce za and pha sounds due to lack of urdu education and focus on sanskrit.

But in Bollywood that's a strict no no and people do study Urdu phonology via either devanagari or Roman script.

Brahmins are the only people whose mother tongue is sanskrit. And in those days many non-brahmins especially Turkik originated peopled would acquire nativity in sanskrit.

But indeed today even for Brahmins the language which is mother tongue is manak Hindi and they acquire nativity in sanskrit. The chaste form of shuddh hindi is only mostly by them in formal purposes and others who educated well in sanskrit.

Caste system is not a joke. And language like sanskrit which gives enlightenment had and still has been kept away from the masses consciously.

Sanskrit was the lingua franca of the Brahmins and a second language of the rest of the Aryan invaders.

If a common cannot speak the language it means it's not a lingua franca. And Sanskrit never extended as one even amongst aryans themselves, let alone others.

Shuddh hindi, like sanskrit is clearly not the language of the masses.

Prakrit: The forgotten ancestor

There was a scientific study as well about how prakrit came to be after aryans invaded native Indians and introduced sanskrit. I will put it when I find it, rest assured you can google for the same
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#68
You mean "viewed Bengali as a Hindu language", correct? Also, were both Urdu and Bengali initially written in the Hindi script?
The script is not hindi but devanagiri. The first form of Hindi-Urdu was hindavi and it was written in not arabuc but persian script.

Before Hindavi was prakrit based apramabhasha which use brahmi script and also Brahmins used devanagiri for it.

After invasion Hindavi was born circa amir khusaro being popular and it's clearly due to Dehli Sultanat being a stable established power.

Again Brahmins used Hindavi much later in devanagiri but later as it went to Deccani form nastaliq(similar to persian but poetic script) was used and gained courtly status. The reason this script was used was mainly due to Sufi nature of the Deccani language evolution from Hindavi.

Indeed hindavi continued in the north when tuqhlaq went back to dehli and and became dehlavi.

So no, bengali is descendant script of a mix, due to sanskrit and prakrit mix. Thus scripts mixed. And sanskrit was never native to bengal. Thus you can see it's literary form was heavily used in Bengali instead of its spoken form.


This always gets to me as my ancestors from Dehli Sultanat who rebelled and stayed back in Deccani but amir khusro was before that happened so I can relate to emotions in his poetry(although is very persianized)

Bahmani sultanate consciously adopted Hindavi for a short time and then quickly Deccani after the Sufi movement as court language.

Later during quli qutb shah it was renamed as hindi displaying kind gesture to spread the reach as a form of Hindavi was spoken throughout north as deccan rulers themselves were poets unlike Mughals.

piya baj pyala piya jae na - Ghazal

It also became a famous bollywood song. Clearly the language is variant to Hindavi but influenced by Marathi and Dravidian languages.

This is what modern hindi comes from and I mean the standard Manak hindi form not the shuddh one. That sweet hindi. For example.



It must be noted that khusro Persian speaking father died early and mother was Rajasthani. And khusro poetry made a huge influence.


Hindavi returned as Deccani north by wali Aurangabadi and later it was turned to rekhta by the poets there who spoke persian. The Hindustani speakers created due to aurangzeb used this Deccani as the base and diverged into Urdu and Hindi depending on whether they associated with sanskrit or Persian.

The poets in Dehli courts went on to establish zaban e urdu e mualla much before the Hindustani speakers established Urdu and then hindi. It was Hindustani is the Persian form aka Urdu which British replaced as official after banning Persian.

Later the movement of Brahmins happened who wanted sanskrit based Urdu and removed of Arabic which they considered Islamic language.

So Bihar was first state to change from Urdu to Hindi. Yet even in Bhojpuri language you can see more Urdu influence than hindi but without in sounds of za and pha.

Bihar influenced Bengal. And even today many Biharis are bangaladeshi citizens, and this is main reason why bangali of bangladesh is different from Bengali of India.

Biharis influenced carribean Hindustani as well.

The very word hindi is from Urdu. So Urdu cannot come from hindi. Politics has changed the facts of history unfortunately.
 
Jun 2014
5,568
New Delhi, India
#69
Brahmins are the only people whose mother tongue is sanskrit. .. Sanskrit was the lingua franca of the Brahmins and a second language of the rest of the Aryan.
That is sure a funny statement. There are two villages in India, one in Karnataka and the other in Madhya Pradesh, where Sanskrit is the mother tongue. Even Muslims in the Karnataka village (as reported in the newspapers) speak and like Sanskrit. Otherwise, I have not known any Brahmin whose mother tongue is Sanskrit. I am myself one. We speak 'Hindustani' at home and outside it, would not understand 'Manak/Shuddha' Hindi and will be amused by it like other people. I regret the loss of z, ph, qu and khh, an unnecessary restriction put on Hindi. What was the harm if people learnt and spoke these sounds?
 
Last edited:
#70
That is sure a funny statement. There are two villages in India, one in Karnataka and the other in Madhya Pradesh, where Sanskrit is the mother tongue. Even Muslims in the Karnataka village (as reported in the newspapers) speak and like Sanskrit. Otherwise, I have not known any Brahmin whose mother tongue is Sanskrit. I am myself one. We speak 'Hindustani' at home and outside it, would not understand 'Manak/Shuddha' Hindi and will be amused by it like other people. I regret the loss of z, ph, qu and khh, an unnecessary restriction put on Hindi. What was the harm if people learnt and spoke these sounds?
Jeez! Most of Indians can easily pronounce those sounds so there is not much loss.