Why Pakistan chose Urdu over Persian as it's National Language ?

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,595
India
#71
You mean "viewed Bengali as a Hindu language", correct? Also, were both Urdu and Bengali initially written in the Hindi script?
Urdu is written in modified Arabic script. Hindi in Devanagari and Bengali in Eastern Nagari (Bengali script). Bengali has a rich modern literature and only Indian language with a nobel prize winner. The Western Pakistani elites belittled their language pride.
 
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Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,595
India
#72
Persian was not just in Mughal courts but it was indeed the language of the educated, along with sanskrit and in many cases Arabic

Nobody speaks standard hindi except for oudh region and the 'courtly' offical people of dehli.

Manak hindi can pass off as a natural language in case of Brahmins but shuddh hindi is just not natural.

Languages cannot and should not be made and thus when the majority doesn't speak sanskrit it makes no sense adding words which are not popular. English is popular. And naturally a new language called Hinglish, among other varieties has evolved.

If sanskrit was not kept to Brahmins it would be well spoken into modern times as the most spoken language but that's not the case the only pan indian language is indeed Urdu and it's bolis.

The standard hindi you refer to is HINDUSTANI in the urdu syntax. And it's rather very clear the the lack of ability to pronounce za and pha sounds due to lack of urdu education and focus on sanskrit.

But in Bollywood that's a strict no no and people do study Urdu phonology via either devanagari or Roman script.

Brahmins are the only people whose mother tongue is sanskrit. And in those days many non-brahmins especially Turkik originated peopled would acquire nativity in sanskrit.

But indeed today even for Brahmins the language which is mother tongue is manak Hindi and they acquire nativity in sanskrit. The chaste form of shuddh hindi is only mostly by them in formal purposes and others who educated well in sanskrit.

Caste system is not a joke. And language like sanskrit which gives enlightenment had and still has been kept away from the masses consciously.

Sanskrit was the lingua franca of the Brahmins and a second language of the rest of the Aryan invaders.

If a common cannot speak the language it means it's not a lingua franca. And Sanskrit never extended as one even amongst aryans themselves, let alone others.

Shuddh hindi, like sanskrit is clearly not the language of the masses.

Prakrit: The forgotten ancestor

There was a scientific study as well about how prakrit came to be after aryans invaded native Indians and introduced sanskrit. I will put it when I find it, rest assured you can google for the same
Brahmins speak the language of their other neighbours. Prakrit originated directly out of Vedic Sanskrit. It doesn't if nobody speak Sanskrit today, its an integral part of Indian culture and heritage, not just Brahmins alone.
Hindi is an Arabic-Persian words means Indian to distinguish the language of native Indians from Persian speaking Muslim rulers. Urdu didn't originate until the time of Shah Jehan, when a mixed Khariboli-Persian type language was popularized for court poetry and dance and music events.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,572
New Delhi, India
#73
No, Kamayani. They cannot. They are not taught that in the school and their books do not contain that. A ship is always Jahaj with no diacritical mark. I am not talking of old-timers like me who delighted in the poetry of Mirza Ghalib.
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#74
That is sure a funny statement. There are two villages in India, one in Karnataka and the other in Madhya Pradesh, where Sanskrit is the mother tongue. Even Muslims in the Karnataka village (as reported in the newspapers) speak and like Sanskrit. Otherwise, I have not known any Brahmin whose mother tongue is Sanskrit. I am myself one. We speak 'Hindustani' at home and outside it, would not understand 'Manak/Shuddha' Hindi and will be amused by it like other people. I regret the loss of z, ph, qu and khh, an unnecessary restriction put on Hindi. What was the harm if people learnt and spoke these sounds?
Yes indeed I'm aware. I was talking about it being a mother tongue of Brahmins in the past not now. I apologise if you misunderstood.

Now it's more of an acquired native language like Desi English is to many Indians. It's not second language but it's neither a mother tongue.

The harm is it would not serve the idea of hindi and stop the bigotry towards Urdu. There was an episode 7 of samvidhan it was about language choice 1947. Abdul Kalam Azad ji gave a fabulous speech about how we will never become a great nation in the world if we don't adopt Hindustani as offical. And indeed we haven't. We haven't done what bapu wanted.

As you are well aware Manak or shuddh hindi are the only forms available in education as medium of instruction and books. I've personally talked to thousands of such hindi medium students who say hindi is just simply not enough for them and learning Urdu phonetics and English language is must or they are called adivasi Gao wala and so on.

The saddest part is these are not even Hindustani language but speakers of rural languages which have been demolished as dialects of hindi no less.

The fact that BIMARU states represent the status of these very people saddens me.

There are many more sounds that come from majorly Arabic, Persian and Turkik languages which are also not present in hindi.

Indeed hindi is nothing but sanskrtized Urdu and therin lies the problem of artificial language that nobody speaks naturally and is baffled at as you say
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#75
Brahmins speak the language of their other neighbours. Prakrit originated directly out of Vedic Sanskrit. It doesn't if nobody speak Sanskrit today, its an integral part of Indian culture and heritage, not just Brahmins alone.
Hindi is an Arabic-Persian words means Indian to distinguish the language of native Indians from Persian speaking Muslim rulers. Urdu didn't originate until the time of Shah Jehan, when a mixed Khariboli-Persian type language was popularized for court poetry and dance and music events.
I agree with the first paragraph. Yes I've mentioned that zaban a urdu e mualla didn't exist until shah jehan taj mahal time. I've clearly explained that Deccani was taken to Dehli around 1700 by wali Aurangabadi and the persian poets mixed dari with it and called it rekhta. When they perfected it for darbari use it became a language of grandeur call the long Urdu phrase. Later when British destroyed the Grandeur it came to be know as just Urdu to represent a horde.

Later the other people fallen kingdoms with a similar history attached Urdu to their language which had become a Neanderthal lect. Indeed the same has happened to older languages now considered dialects of hindi due to loss of political power or status of might.

Hindi is the newest language of india If you don't count Hinglish
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#76
IMHO, Urdu always used the Arabic script. But then, the language in Hindu states had a Sanskrit base (even Urdu has a Sanskrit base; all its verbs are from Sanskrit, Hasna, Khana, Rona, Gana, Dhona) with lots of words words from Persian and Arabic. It could be written in whatever was the local script. The old Indian Penal Code is interesting to read.
Urdu originally know as hindavi used the persian script. The poetic script nastaliq got in use during the Deccani period and was perfected around shah Jehan and after his death time until before the British.
After that a variant called shekasteh Nastaliq was also used for Firman and signing of nobles. It's a more fancy version of nastaliq mostly used to very important formal occasions.
 
Likes: Aupmanyav
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#77
Jeez! Most of Indians can easily pronounce those sounds so there is not much loss.
Trust me the majority of Indians don't speak Hindustani. They speak many other languages. All Indian languages have been influenced by Urdu but the sounds always are lost. Especially Persian ones.
As for Hindustani only the ones who watch bollywood or are urbanised speak with Urdu accented Hindustani. The majority of population are not these people. Therefore they do not.

They are all jaroori and fir. Those who study hindi too hard also do these mistakes in urban areas.

Javed Akhtar made a nice comment joke over it
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,572
New Delhi, India
#78
Languages in India are hail and hearty and 22 of them are designated as National Languages (more aspire for that status and may get it because of votes). One can appear for IFS, IAS and IPS in any one of those languages and in Arabic and Persian too, so do not worry about them.

What you have said in your post above is the reason Nehru adopted 'Manak/Shuddha' Hindi and not Hindustani.
 
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#79
Urdu is written in modified Arabic script. Hindi in Devanagari and Bengali in Eastern Nagari (Bengali script). Bengali has a rich modern literature and only Indian language with a nobel prize winner. The Western Pakistani elites belittled their language pride.
Urdu is written is nastaliq or shekasteh nastaliq all of which originate from persianate culture.

It has nothing to do with Arabic script. Today unfortunately Pakistanis push the Arabic script online as they want Arabic as their national language.

Persian was a modified Arabic script. Urdu is using the modified Persian script that is used for calligraphy in poetry. Another form called shekasteh was used by Mughals for Dari Persian.

And a new version called shekasteh Nastaliq developed for official uses of Urdu by Mughals and others around bahadur shah zafar time.

To give you an idea, look

The modern forms are best in Jameel noori nastaliq kasheeda aka shekasteh nastaliq. And jameel noori nastaliq aka refined nastaliq

You won't find a single pakistani do such pains what I did coz urdu is indian language at heart.

And yes I use my tablet in shekasteh Nastaliq in urdu language. Yes to install the fonts was a damn long frustrated effort to success. But worth it. If anyone interested on how to lemme know
 

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Likes: Aupmanyav
Aug 2019
79
Bengaluru, India/Sharjah, UAE
#80
Languages in India are hail and hearty and 22 of them are designated as National Languages (more aspire for that status and may get it because of votes). One can appear for IFS, IAS and IPS in any one of those languages and in Arabic and Persian too, so do not worry about them.

What you have said in your post above is the reason Nehru adopted 'Manak/Shuddha' Hindi and not Hindustani.
Arabic seriously? I don't see why as it was never a spoken or eventually nativised language in India like Persian and English have become.

Maybe it's modern time people who have gulf relationship especially from Kerala.

Could you be more specific to what exactly you refer to as the reason Nehru adopted hindi over HINDUSTANI.

Also Hindustani was adopted. But it was then written as hindi and they removed the option of nastaliq script and later sanskritized it.

Article 351 still mentions Hindustani but clearly shows bigotry in its intent. Or as Abdul Kalam Azad put it tang khayali. Samvidhan episode 7 on YouTube.
 

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