I never said anything of them came from Juvaini. Can you show me where I did?Bart the quote in the last section of your post is messed up, I didn't get the latter half of your post. It's rectified below.
These are the sources I used to show Mongols were outnumbered:
Next Batu went to Poland and Hungary and having divided the army on the border of these two countries, he sent 10 thousands of warriors under his brother Ordu against Poland.." -Historia TartarorumYet although there was an enormous number of them, they say that in that battle (Mohi) the forces of the Hungarians were actually greater. But there is no race in the world that has such experience in warfare or that knows so well, especially on open ground, how to get the better of their enemy, whether by courage or skillful tactics. -History of the Bishops of SplitAt this point Batu, the elder of the two leaders of the Tatar host, ascended a hill to spy out carefully the disposition of the whole army. He returned to his followers and told them;We can be confident, comrades; for although there is a great host of this enemy, they have allowed themselves to take poor counsel, and will thus not be able to escape our hands. For I have seen them like sheep without a shepherd, enclosed within the narrowest of folds. -Master Roger's EpistleAfter crossing the river, Batu saw that the enemy was many, and wanted to quickly return to camp to plan further. Subotai refused, and said "You go back if you want, if I don't reach Xiu Nei river and Ma Cha city then I will not go back; -Yuan Shih
^Which of them came from Juvaini? None?
I cited Juvaini to show there was a lot of false claims about the Mongols having smaller forces even in contemporary sources, and to show you can't accept claims, even from contemporary sources, at face value. A claim of 400,000 for the Hungarians is total nonsense and demonstrates a lot of what is claimed about the number of Mongol opponents must be treated skeptically and is not reliable, even for contemporary sources.
It was not clear to me who you were quoting where, and so rather than waste time.puzzling out, I just want to show such statements need to be questioned.
That quote says nothing about whether the Mongols were more or less numerous, and so doesn't tell us if the Mongols were out numbered or not. The same be said for you other Christian sources, it was difficult to tell which quote came from where.The Hungarians, trusting their number, made fun of all this and—owing to the matters discussed above—had neither mind nor spirit for fighting…………… Nevertheless, a thousand warriors were deployed every night [to the bridge at Mohi] to guard the [rest of the Hungarian] army. -Historia Salonitanorum Atque Spalatinorum Pontificum by Thomas of Split
There is nothing in the quote to imply in the quote the Mongols were outnumbered. Do you have a better European quote?
And what contemporary European says that? I don't see you providing it. The quote above doesn't. It talks about thousands guarding a bridge, nothing about the number of Mongols, so it tells us nothing.Perhaps Modern writers read History of the Bishops of Split or Master Roger's Epistle which said the Mongols were outnumbered. I didn't say anything about Modern writers. None of the four sources I used were made by modern writers, at best translated by modern writers. Anyway, if even European sources say they had the numerical advantage when they have the incentive to do otherwise, it's hard to argue against that.
We know for certain that s tumen is a unit of 10,000 because we have contemporary sources that state just that. While at times the tumen may have been less than 10,000, you haven't provided evidence that it is always significantly less than 10,000 as you claim, or even usually.Actually 5 tumens is more like 25,000-30,000 as heavenlykaghan convincingly argued.
In Juvaini, Batu sent out 10,000 with his brother to spy on the Hungarians, which would imply that a tumen was 10,000. It also impiles that if Batu could spare 10,000 for just a scouting mission, his army was.considerably larger than that.
Another source claimed that the force sent to Poland was 10,000. ("Tartar Relation", Giovannia da Pian del Carpine pg 80) so whatever the tumen size was in other armies, it seems that Batu's tumens were 10,000, consistent with the known value of a tumen as 10,000.
He did say the total was 40,000 in a different section. If you take the numbers of the troops in Rashdid Al-Din 1:198, 2:152, which combined were the number of Batu forces invading Bulgaria. The assumption is that he would have roughly the same numbers when he invaded Hungary, less a few losses.More importantly Rashid certainly DID NOT say that the Mongol forces were 5 tumens nor did he say it numbered 40,000. This was what I thought too but it's wrong upon reading the original source. All Rashid said that the Mongol army took 5 different routes to Europe:
The source was "Journal of Medieval Military History Vol 8", Clifford J. Rogers, John France's,Zero Kelly DeVries, pg115, referring to a contemporary source Epternacher Notiz.As for the rest of your statement, you gave zero quotes and not even the titles of your sources:
1. You claim "one source said 10,000 were killed" <--- You need to give the quote and title of the source for that claim.
2. You claim "other sources said that most of the Hungarians were killed" <--- You need to give the quote and title of the source for that claim [I probably can guess what one of this is but you need to put in some amount of effort into your posts instead of using vagueness such as this]. Since you used the plural "sources" I expect more than one source. [/Quote]
Thomas of Spalato "Historia" which is a source you have. 0ne source is all that is required, for such a commonly known thing. And I am going to have to insist you provide a primary source, not from another poster, that shows the tumens were far less than 10,000 all the time. William of Rubrik specifically stated a tumen was 10,000, and he is a contemporary source living among the Mongols.
The force sent to Poland was around 10,000 based on other sources I mentioned above. The scouting force that Juvaini mentioned was 10,000, and this implies that (a) the tumens in Batu's army was 10,000, and (b), the Mongol forces were far more than 10,000, perhaps 30,000 would be the minimum. You wouldn't send a scouting force the size of your whole army or even half. Batu and Subutai wouldn't have until smaller than Batu sent with his Brother, so if Batu sent 10,000 with his brother Sibiquan (Ehiban), both he and Subutai would have units of 10,000 each, giving a total of 30,000, with 10,000 still in Poland.Not really, as I said a significant portion of the Mongol army was sent to Poland where they defeated Polish armies in the field and sacked some of their urban centers. By the time the Mongols defeated the Polish at the Battle of Legnica, it was too late for them to help the Mongols in Hungary at the battle of Mohi. And you got this "30,000" number from Rashid, but Rashid didn't make this claim at all.
If you look back at my postings, I came up the number 30,000 before I had heard of Rashdid Al-Din.