Why was 'aetheopius' left out of the original iliad?

Jul 2017
842
Crete
'Hittite' [חת] is a Hebraic rendering of Scythia [Σκυθία] as well as Cushan [Σκυθίαν], my theory is that these are the ingenious people of the Levant . Phoenicians & Palestinians on the other hand are mostly Merchant Greeks along the coast-line.

The coastal-cities and surrounding areas have Greek names, Gaza (ἄστυ ), Ashdod(ἀστός/Ἀτθίς ), Tyre(ὀχυραὶ), Byblos(πάμπολις), Sidon (ξουθός), Lebanon(Ἀλβανοί), Cainan (χῖονών), Carthage(πόλις κτίζω ), Aram(ἁρμός ), Havilah(ἐπαύλεις ) , Jerusalem(ἱερός οὔλους), Syria (θώραξ) Palestine(πολύ ἀστόν), Achaemenid (Ἀχαιός μάντις), Iraq (αργος), Arabia (ἐρήμου) and Baalbek ( πόλις Βάκχος) et cetera .

The middle-east was overrun and colonised by Greeks, Memnon's Kingdom was one of them.
 
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Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,688
It would be the ultimate irony if Aethiopia was the name that the Mycenaeans called the Hittites. It would fit the idea that Memnon was a powerful king from the east, and that he had some family ties with Priam royalhouse (the Hittites intermarried with minor Royal houses) .

The funny thing is that Herodotus did not believe that the monuments in central Anatolia were related to Memnon.
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-hittites-and-the-aegean-world/


Anyway Aethiopia (if it existed)was like Dilmun: an important kingdom remembered only by it's fame,but nobody know where it was located.



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Nice link- there is quite a bit of stuff not known about long eras of history- it is too easy too look at a timeline and read a summary of events and misunderstand how much knowledge we've been able to build about the eras discussed.
 

Dreamhunter

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
7,483
Malaysia
Its the Heroic Age, Not properly identified in time ,it could be sagas dating back even to Indoeuropean times, some people even thought it was settled in the Baltic seas, Most of the Greeks look nordic anyway as well as did Romans and Greeks in their time, so a Memnon from the east could be perhaps the same stock of the Troians since he was son of Eos ( Aurora ) so a divinity and Titon ,a Troian prince son of King Laomedon and brother of Priamus. He was said to have a burnt face couse of the sun but this can mean simply that he come from a more sunny land like Susa for example...
Susa before the conquest of Persians so may be Elam or Persian or an Indoeuropean from there.
So nothing to to with black africans or the like.
Susa at the time of Trojan War wud hv been the capital of Elam. Now, if we're to go by some accounts, Elamites, like their neighbours the Sumerians, might hv been a quite dark complexioned people, much darker than today's creamish to light brown Iranians. They're in fact believed by some writers to be closely connected ethnically to the Dravidians of southern India. So, a 'black' Memnon (but not necessarily an African one) might actually hv been quite possible. Think Elamite/Sumerian/Dravidian.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,914
Portugal
These poems are meant to be recited, not read quietly. Synonyms and different variations of the same word get used so the meter of the poem is maintained. That isn't the case in this instance but it happens a lot with hexameter verse. Sometimes poets simply make up words that never get used anywhere again - contracting words or adding syllables so that the rhythm remains uninterrupted. It makes translating them extremely frustrating.
Yes, I absolutely agree, that would be a possibility, but not in the case raised in this instance, as you say.

'Egypt as far as Susa' doesn't make any geographical sense.
Thanks for the map, that way we all can see where are Egypt and Susa.

It makes geographical sense, we can go from South or West of Egypt and there to Susa, but it is difficult to believe that some conquer made that, and this was precisely my point when I wrote “It really seems that he fantasized a bit.”. But you brought Pausanias to the theme, even from the quotes we saw it seems that, some 1000 years later that Homer, he can bring more confusion than light to the matter, let me recall a part of a already quoted passage: “There are other Aethiopians who are neighbours of the Mauri”.

If 'Ethiopia meant Phoenician , perhaps it's referring to the odd-passage in Herodotus 1:1:1 that mentions Phoenicians occupying Persia.
Yes, “if”… “perhaps”… “odd-passage”… sounds a long shot.
 

Dreamhunter

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
7,483
Malaysia
Susa at the time of Trojan War wud hv been the capital of Elam. Now, if we're to go by some accounts, Elamites, like their neighbours the Sumerians, might hv been a quite dark complexioned people, much darker than today's creamish to light brown Iranians. They're in fact believed by some writers to be closely connected ethnically to the Dravidians of southern India. So, a 'black' Memnon (but not necessarily an African one) might actually hv been quite possible. Think Elamite/Sumerian/Dravidian.
Something like this, perhaps.

 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
Analysing the word 'Memnon' might produce clues, the -on ending is a suffix
so 'MEMN' is the pure form of the word.

The Lexicon definition is 'SteadFast' and thus it's Phoenician cognate
is AMN ( 𐤀𐤌‬𐤍‬) , His name would be written 𐤌‬𐤀𐤌‬𐤍‬𐤅‬𐤍 , Agamemnon would
be 𐤀𐤇‬𐤉𐤌‬𐤀𐤌‬𐤍‬𐤅‬𐤍 .

The name Memnon is same as Amnon (Αμνων ).

Memnon had a brother, Emathion, pure form is 'Ἠμαθ- which is is ‬𐤍𐤕/𐤌𐤕 "Gift"
or by extension, 𐤌𐤕𐤌 / 𐤍𐤕𐤍 .

Considering how old Homer is, he most likely wrote his works in the Phoenician script.
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
Susa

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists 12:8
Aristocles and Chares say that Susa derives its name from the seasonable and beautiful character of the place for that what the Greeks call the lily (κρίνον) is called in the Persian language σοῦσον ( Souson )

This is a clue, because ' Susa means Lily and this meaning is used on Songs 2:2, " Lily among thorns" , the Hebrew word is שושנ (Souson).

Susa is from ἀνθίζω/𐤑𐤉𐤑(Ziz) "Bloom/flower" ( Ziz is the ancient name of Palermo , Southern Italy)

According too the Mythology, Tithonus ( father of Memnon) founded Susa , then perhaps they are linking the name 'Tithonus with ἀνθίζω/𐤑𐤉𐤑/σοῦσον as they did with Persia/Perseus.

ἀνθῶν(𐤍𐤑𐤍) *Greek & Phoenician word for Flower is identical

One similar sounding word comes into mind, 'Ashdod', spelt Azotus/Azotias in Greek source and the phrase "Egypt as far as Ashdod " is geographically reasonable since the Egyptian empire commonly extended into this area of Canaan.
 
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Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
When I was in Denver a long time ago, I was hanging out at a bar with a bunch of Greeks, and to a one they seemed to believe that ancient Greeks were blond, but it was the admixture of Turkish blood that caused them to become dark-haired! Apparently for some, the Trojan War continues.
Sad! All they'd have to do was to go look at some Byzantine art to dispel that notion.

I'd have to say the claim that the ancient Greeks and Romans were fairer skinned or haired than modern Greeks or Italians is one of my pet peeves when it comes to historical discussion, though thankfully I've only run into it online. That sort of "history by Himmler" mythology is easily debunked, all you have to do is look at the art they created...but some people choose to believe what they want to, even when presented with contradictory facts.
 
May 2018
134
On earth.
Despite what the usual afrocentric people might think Memnon wasn't a black character, neither Aethiopians described are the ones from Africa .
Thats a just a later geographical positioning done by Romans when made contact with tribes south of Aegypt.

Memnon himself was, as Tithonus , related to the East, and he is said to have built a palace of many colored and shining white stones bound with gold in the city of Ecbatana. For Memnon, starting from Ethiopia, overrun Egypt and conquered the East as far as the city of Susa, which he surrounded by walls. So Memnon, although being king of the Ethiopians, came to Troy, not from what today is called Africa, but from Susa, not far away from the river Tigris, in the land that later became Persia. And when he made his march to the west, he subdued all the peoples that lived between Susa and Troy.
Tithonus is son of King Laomedon of Troy, son of Ilus , the founder of Troy, son of Tros , after whom the Trojans were called, son of Erichthonius , son of Dardanus , son of Zeus and the Pleiad Electra .
Yes, it is now afrocentrist be believe that greeks could've possibly had Memnon as a black.
It doesn't matter that most greco-roman writers believed that in the myth he was of sub saharan origin, nor does it matter that many greek/roman depictions of the man have him with clearly sub saharan features. Nope, no way he was black, and if you think that he was then you're afrocentric. Yup.

It also doesn't matter that the term "Aethiopian" literally translates to burnt face. Nonononononono...
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
Aethiopia

The suffix is ὠπός , this word can mean Nose, Eye, Mouth or Ears and comparable too the Phoenician words, Pan (Face), Aph (Nose) , Peh (Mouth) and Oin (Eye). so the word can either be 'Burnt Face, Burnt Nose, Burnt Eye or Burnt Month".

Burnt-Mouth is the one.

Mouth can means 'off a river' , another word for a river-mouth is Estuary and
this word is the prefix of Aethiopia. * αἶθος ποταμός

Estuary - from PIE *aidh- "to burn

A synonym appears in the Bible, "Pihahiroth" ( פי החירת) "Burnt Mouth", The Bible repeatably describing 'Burning-Rivers' quite literally, see 2 Kings 2:8 "Helios burnt the waters" ( Winter-torrent).

In Greek mythology, Phaethon burnt a river when the chariot of Helios crashed into it.

Phaethon (פי אתון) * Burnt Mouth

* Burnt River
Red Water, in color like blood, is found in the land of the Hebrews near the city of Joppa. The water is close to the sea, and the account which the natives give of the spring is that Perseus, after destroying Cetus, to which the daughter of Cepheus was exposed, washed off the blood in the spring. Paus. 4.35
 
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