Why Wasn't India United Before?

Apr 2018
1,260
Mythical land.
#81
I am glad they did that. As a result, Hindus in Goa had taken a liking to beef dishes. What's more? Hindus from elsewhere in India where beef is banned go to Goa to taste the forbidden meat (they go to Kerala too). Once you eat it, you are hooked, because it is the best tasting meat - the king of meats. Sorry to see Brahmins forbid Hindus from eating such a tasty food. Another harm done to Indians by the Brahmins!
once a shameless bigot,always a shameless bigot.
 
Likes: prashanth
Aug 2014
3,886
India
#85
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4 fold hereditary caste system instead of 3 fold profession based Varna system, emerged. It seriously restricted social mobility ie changing one's job, marrying someone from different background, interacting with other people. Lots of sub castes. Tribal identity because of this evolved to Caste identity. Only if Rig Vedic Varna system continued Brahmin(Priests), Kshatriyas(warriors), Vaishyas(commoners) and no other sub castes, India's history would be much different.

Plus Indian way of war was extremely humane. Very rarely defeated kings were killed in China style with their army totally destroyed and kingdom annexed. Even if kingdom was annexed local feudal chiefs were left alone if they paid allegience to victor king.

So in India state did not have monopoly in exercising power. Each Indian kingdom had 3 types of territories. 1) Areas directly ruled by king, 2) Areas ruled by Feudal chiefs, 3) Areas of tributary states.

Likewise Army was three types 1)King's own army, 2)Feudal levies 3) Allied King's army. I am here basing my assumptions on Burton Stein's segmentary state

So neither Indian state was centralized nor was army. It costed Indian civilization very dearly. If only if this caste system remained 3 fold Varna system as of Rig Vedic era, history of India would be much better.
 
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Apr 2018
1,260
Mythical land.
#86
4 fold hereditary caste system instead of 3 fold profession based Varna system, emerged. It seriously restricted social mobility ie changing one's job, marrying someone from different background, interacting with other people. Lots of sub castes. Tribal identity because of this evolved to Caste identity. Only if Rig Vedic Varna system continued Brahmin(Priests), Kshatriyas(warriors), Vaishyas(commoners) and no other sub castes, India's history would be much different.

Now Indian Empires were not centralized. As caste system severely restricted access to education, a neutral merit based administration could never be created. Since caste made one's privileges secure, it was not loyalty to King which secured one's position but caste affiliations. So in place of a meritocratic administration, administration depended on local chiefs who also exercised military power.

Plus Indian way of war was extremely humane. Very rarely defeated kings were killed in China style with their army totally destroyed and kingdom annexed. Even if kingdom was annexed local feudal chiefs were left alone if they paid allegience to victor king.

So in India state did not have monopoly in exercising power. Each Indian kingdom had 3 types of territories. 1) Areas directly ruled by king, 2) Areas ruled by Feudal chiefs, 3) Areas of tributary states.

Likewise Army was three types 1)King's own army, 2)Feudal levies 3) Allied King's army.

So neither Indian state was centralized nor was army. It costed Indian civilization very dearly. If only if this caste system remained 3 fold Varna system as of Rig Vedic era, history of India would be much better.
Vedic system is 4 fold
Brahman,rajanya(kings and warriors),vaishya and shudra.
from mouth,arms,thigh and feet.

and i am pretty sure that this was not the reality of india but percieved ideal system by brahmins
anyway even manusmriti talks about upliftment and downgrade of entire jatis to one or other varna,even until 14 or 15th century we see kakatiya dynasty who were of shudra origins.
 
Aug 2014
3,886
India
#87
  • SSDD

    SSDD

Vedic system is 4 fold
Brahman,rajanya(kings and warriors),vaishya and shudra.
from mouth,arms,thigh and feet.

and i am pretty sure that this was not the reality of india but percieved ideal system by brahmins
anyway even manusmriti talks about upliftment and downgrade of entire jatis to one or other varna,even until 14 or 15th century we see kakatiya dynasty who were of shudra origins.
Purusha Sukta is the only part where the term Shudra appears. So at least in Rig Vedic era Shudras did not appear. Jati mobility is different than individual mobility. Why should a a talented son of a barber be restricted from studying just because of other 100 sons of barbers? Say a X Jati is traditionally engaged in landed labourer job, then oneday one person from that Jati decided he would switch to Ironsmith's work and will marry a soldier's daughter. Can he do that? He cant.

Just of origin is not enough. Various Jatis in order to promote their rank just claimed their descent from a very good person, meaning a person from X caste, mentioned, if he becomes a king then in order to gain legitimacy he needs to claim lineage from a great person, it is not that he can remain king while being of X caste.

Just Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya these 3 Varnas, with no restriction on education, inter-Varna marriage and changing job, would make India much more powerful.
 
Apr 2015
3,872
India
#88
I am glad they did that. As a result, Hindus in Goa had taken a liking to beef dishes. What's more? Hindus from elsewhere in India where beef is banned go to Goa to taste the forbidden meat (they go to Kerala too). Once you eat it, you are hooked, because it is the best tasting meat - the king of meats. Sorry to see Brahmins forbid Hindus from eating such a tasty food. Another harm done to Indians by the Brahmins!
All persecution was futile. I have lived in Goa. Goa remained Hindu majority and Goa Hindus don't eat beef. Despite centuries of persecution by foreign invaders we Hindus still have our religion, culture, sacred language, ancient literature, writing system preserved, that what makes us a proud Hindus.
 
Likes: prashanth
Apr 2018
1,260
Mythical land.
#89
Purusha Sukta is the only part where the term Shudra appears. So at least in Rig Vedic era Shudras did not appear. Jati mobility is different than individual mobility. Why should a a talented son of a barber be restricted from studying just because of other 100 sons of barbers? Say a X Jati is traditionally engaged in landed labourer job, then oneday one person from that Jati decided he would switch to Ironsmith's work and will marry a soldier's daughter. Can he do that? He cant.

Just of origin is not enough. Various Jatis in order to promote their rank just claimed their descent from a very good person, meaning a person from X caste, mentioned, if he becomes a king then in order to gain legitimacy he needs to claim lineage from a great person, it is not that he can remain king while being of X caste.

Just Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya these 3 Varnas, with no restriction on education, inter-Varna marriage and changing job, would make India much more powerful.
Thats the only place vedas talk about any varnas,three varnas only never appear in any vedic text to best of my knowledge.

Individual anything is modern concept,individuality didn't exist in past times,even taxes were based on per house rather than per head.
And shudra or vaishya did form army of empire.

Obviously caste based discrimination is wrong and should be avoided,but in india caste system was not as rigid as many people try to portray it,it was quite fluid.
And being of origin demonstrates fluidity,or atleast social fluidity of india,atleast in that specific area.
 

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