Without the US, the French (& British) would be speaking German

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,949
Stockport Cheshire UK
"...in April 1940 the Waffen-SS started recruiting in Denmark. With the start of the anti-Bolshevik "crusade" in June 1941, thousands of Danes volunteered to fight against the Soviet Union. Of 13,000 volunteers, the Waffen-SS was able to select 7,000 of the best. These Danes fought in a variety of units, mainly the Waffen-SS Viking, "Death's Head", and Nordland divisions..."

Ignoble Danes
13,000 is an insignificant number when you consider Denmark had a population of around 4,000,000 and was treated with kid gloves by the Nazis until almost the end of the war.
I hold no illusions that the Germans wouldn't have also found a similar percentage of collaborative scum if my country had been successfully invaded.​
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,268
13,000 is an insignificant number when you consider Denmark had a population of around 4,000,000 and was treated with kid gloves by the Nazis until almost the end of the war.
I hold no illusions that the Germans wouldn't have also found a similar percentage of collaborative scum if my country had been successfully invaded.​
No quite insignificant.... Look at modern militaries, they typically represent less than 1% of the population (with some exceptions in the more militarized countries)... China actually has less than 0.5% of its population in the armed forces.

Modern militaries are mostly highly motivated volunteers, those who have a knack for the military profession (not everyone can be a good soldier just like not everyone can sing or dance well or -pick any profession).... Except in emergencies and exceptional situations there was a similar ratio in the roman empire..... This 1% number is a actually a good approximation of how many good soldiers you can expect to get out of your population

So back to Denmark WW2, that number would have been circa 40 000..... One third one that number went to fight with the SS, so that is quite large..... It only looks small because other countries were practising mass conscription (forced)... But there was no such thin in Denmark and these were all volunteers
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,821
Europix
13,000 is an insignificant number when you consider Denmark had a population of around 4,000,000 and was treated with kid gloves by the Nazis until almost the end of the war.
I hold no illusions that the Germans wouldn't have also found a similar percentage of collaborative scum if my country had been successfully invaded.​
Stuthof (today Poland) concentration camp for women.

At the aproach of the Red army (January 1945) , the commander decided to evacuate the camp for Königsberg (some 100 km). On foot. -20°C. Poorly dressed, the Jewish women died one after the other during the march. Those that made it to Palmnicken, were driven to the seaside, forced to enter the sea, were they were shot, grenades were drooped too.

Although a through enquiry was made par the German police in the '60s, nobody was ever indicted. The very memory of the massacre was lost, it was rediscovered by the journalist Alexei Shabunin in the late '80s. Were the victims were buried is still unknown.

The guards that massacred the some 6,000 women weren't even Waffen SS but Todt organisation. And a lot of them were Belgians, be them Flemish or Walloons along Russians and Lithuanians.

So yes, I totally agree with Your lack of illusions: scum, there's everywhere.
 

Poly

Ad Honorem
Apr 2011
6,866
Georgia, USA
13,000 is an insignificant number when you consider Denmark had a population of around 4,000,000 and was treated with kid gloves by the Nazis until almost the end of the war.
I hold no illusions that the Germans wouldn't have also found a similar percentage of collaborative scum if my country had been successfully invaded.​
I would say that 13,000 volunteers from a population of just 4 million is hardly insignificant.

It would be like if 140,000 Frenchmen volunteered to join the SS.
 

Poly

Ad Honorem
Apr 2011
6,866
Georgia, USA
No. But yes.

I said : "... even if it would have faced URSS only ...". Facing isn't the same as the one-to-one war.

As for the rest, I think that just looking at the raw figures of German loses in the Battle for Britain and in the Battle for Stalingrad, more specifically at the loses and at the rate of replacement of loses (human as material), it becomes evident that in each of two, comparing the initial moment with the last one, Germany was falling (=loosing), while UK, respectively URSS, were rising (=winning).

And a small precision on Lend-Lease: there's the generalized misinterpretation, misunderstanding when not simply ignorance that it involved only US. No. URSS (as other) received a lot from UK.

The other precision needed on it is that the Lend-Lease went on "full regime" in 1943-1944.

As I said, by that time, Germany (long) lost its aerial supremacy to UK and it's terrestrial one to URSS.

Germany would have won the war only in one scenario: UK or URSS signing a peace treaty with Germany after 22 Juni 1941. Personally, I find that "if" totally unrealistic.
No, Germany would have Italian troops, foreign born SS units and troops from Hungary, Spain and Romania (plus a few others).

Without allied material support, the USSR is weaker and could lose to a Germany focused only on the Eastern front. More German resources means more Soviet losses.
It also means no disruption to German war production from allied bombing/commando raids.

No battle of the Atlantic, no campaign in North Africa or Greece, no guard force in the West.

I think Germany would win.
 
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Poly

Ad Honorem
Apr 2011
6,866
Georgia, USA
Are we to understand the OP as the fact that the US is keeping the language skills of the UK and France down... And without US meddling, the citizens of those countries would be fluent in german (in addition to any other languages they may speak) ?
They say in America, if you can read this thank a teacher. If you read this in English, thank a soldier.


To which the British add; specifically thank a British soldier.
Without the British Army, the language used in North America would be French or Spanish.
 

Poly

Ad Honorem
Apr 2011
6,866
Georgia, USA
The UK wasn't an occupied nation. The Nazis didn't ask for volunteers to fight for Germany, but against the USSR.

Context matters, but you're sticking to making WWII into a facile Morality Play instead. Feels good?
The Nazis did ask for volunteers to join the SS

Question: how many of the 42 million French population joined ?
 
Jan 2016
1,178
Collapsed wave

Not so bad. If the language is the primary concern against the nazis.
There were many (much) worse things about them.

Oh and also they might very well ended up speaking russian :)

The americans love to boast how they defeated Hitler. After he was defeated by the russians.

Edit: It's basically an american: Yo losers, you owe us one. In case you know we happen to start a new war.
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,821
Europix
No, Germany would have Italian troops, foreign born SS units and troops from Hungary, Spain and Romania (plus a few others).

Without allied material support, the USSR is weaker and could lose to a Germany focused only on the Eastern front. More German resources means more Soviet losses.
It also means no disruption to German war production from allied bombing/commando raids.

No battle of the Atlantic, no campaign in North Africa or Greece, no guard force in the West.

I think Germany would win.
Sorry, isn't that a bit contradictory?

Yourself said:

To which the British add; specifically thank a British soldier.
"Allied" isn't solely "US".

Why Britain, without US involved, would have left North Africa in the hands of Germany and Italy, wouldn't have had bombed Germany, wouldn't have had furnished URSS with material, aso?
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,268
The Nazis did ask for volunteers to join the SS

Question: how many of the 42 million French population joined ?

This says 20 000 (but it also says 6 000 only for Denmark) ..... and 40 000 for Belgium! So basically not proportional to the population

Also to note: in France there was the particular case of the disputed territories of Alsace Lorraine, populations there were considered german and thus subject to conscription as far as I remember....