Worst UK PM ever

Status
Closed
Jun 2016
1,863
England, 200 yards from Wales
Not sure I’d agree with “only” but never mind. It has just struck me that of course Brexit may well not be finished even if a withdrawal agreement is somehow arrived at. There will still be the whole process of negotiating our eventual relationship with the EU so we may not have political peace and goodwill for a long time yet.
I'm sure you're right. It is rather misleading when some politicians talk about 'delivering Brexit' or 'getting it done' or a 'clean break' as though it will all be over and done, and we can get on with other (important) things. I'm sure that would appeal to many of us (on both sides of the debate), but I'm pretty sure it won't be like that.
As you say a lot of negotiating to come, probably even more complex and detailed for a deal than for just leaving. It might be particularly frustrating for some people if we've left with no deal arranged ('clean break') and then we're back to arguing about the Irish border in order to get any trade deal with the EU (and maybe the US too).
 
May 2016
321
Greater Manchester
I'm sure you're right. It is rather misleading when some politicians talk about 'delivering Brexit' or 'getting it done' or a 'clean break' as though it will all be over and done, and we can get on with other (important) things. I'm sure that would appeal to many of us (on both sides of the debate), but I'm pretty sure it won't be like that.
As you say a lot of negotiating to come, probably even more complex and detailed for a deal than for just leaving. It might be particularly frustrating for some people if we've left with no deal arranged ('clean break') and then we're back to arguing about the Irish border in order to get any trade deal with the EU (and maybe the US too).
Britain has to be out of the EU on or before 31st October - or there'll be real trouble for the Tories and some other parties. The Brexit Party will see to that.The

As for trade deals with the EU and US: do we even need any? Britain already trades with the US - and exports more to the US than the US exports to Britain - yet we have no trade deal.
 
Jun 2016
1,863
England, 200 yards from Wales
Britain has to be out of the EU on or before 31st October - or there'll be real trouble for the Tories and some other parties. The Brexit Party will see to that.The

As for trade deals with the EU and US: do we even need any? Britain already trades with the US - and exports more to the US than the US exports to Britain - yet we have no trade deal.
No big, overall, arrangement, but there are I believe various agreements in particular areas between the US and EU that facilitate trade.
Not really the point though, the leave campaign constantly promised a good trade deal with the EU, trade moving as freely as now, so obviously it would be wholly undemocratic to ignore the vote in favour of that promise and push through a leave with no deal ever intended.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,492
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Not really the point though, the leave campaign constantly promised a good trade deal with the EU, trade moving as freely as now, so obviously it would be wholly undemocratic to ignore the vote in favour of that promise and push through a leave with no deal ever intended.
No deal is not an endgame. It just means there will be no transition period. We haven't even begun to negotiate the future trading arrangement yet.

If we leave with no deal, then it simply means we trade with the EU on WTO rules UNTIL a trade agreement can be finalised. It is no reason whatsoever not to leave.
 

Ancientgeezer

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
8,902
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
I would just like to point out that countries do not trade with countries. People and businesses trade and do business with other people and companies in different countries. If country "A"s goods and services and better than any alternatives , they will buy them whatever the price: if country "B" has a willing market, companies will rush to fill it.
All this talk of "no deal", WTO rules and "trade deal" is absolute bovine testicles (Tariff code 0202-1000-000)
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,492
T'Republic of Yorkshire
I would just like to point out that countries do not trade with countries. People and businesses trade and do business with other people and companies in different countries. If country "A"s goods and services and better than any alternatives , they will buy them whatever the price: if country "B" has a willing market, companies will rush to fill it.
All this talk of "no deal", WTO rules and "trade deal" is absolute bovine testicles (Tariff code 0202-1000-000)
Well, that;s largely a matter of semantics but certainly, a government backed or owned company selling goods to another government could certainly said to be trade "between countries".

Huawei being a case in point. Their 5G technology is currently the "best" available in terms of technology, being about a year ahead of everyone else. But there are reasons why country A is not willing to pursue it at any price.

Unless country A is Britain, of course.
 

pikeshot1600

Ad Honoris
Jul 2009
10,009
I would just like to point out that countries do not trade with countries. People and businesses trade and do business with other people and companies in different countries. If country "A"s goods and services and better than any alternatives , they will buy them whatever the price: if country "B" has a willing market, companies will rush to fill it.
All this talk of "no deal", WTO rules and "trade deal" is absolute bovine testicles (Tariff code 0202-1000-000)
As more countries in the "world order" are trending toward being gangster states, the fine distinction may begin to evaporate. Autocrats and their admirers are making so many economic AND business decisions (that often benefit themselves) that some of the accepted market forces are becoming warped in some important ways. I would like to think that your conception is the rule, but right now I am seeing less of it.
 
Jun 2017
2,996
Connecticut
No deal is not an endgame. It just means there will be no transition period. We haven't even begun to negotiate the future trading arrangement yet.

If we leave with no deal, then it simply means we trade with the EU on WTO rules UNTIL a trade agreement can be finalised. It is no reason whatsoever not to leave.
No deal does put up borders though and end the ability of Europeans to immigrate to Europe and vice e versa. This effects Ireland/Northern Ireland and could reinsert a cooled conflict there. All of sudden the radical Irish would have a reason to push for Northern Ireland to join again because they'd be a tangible consequence to the countries being separate, the EU was crucial in making that difference mainly semantic. The UK and EU also did swear up and down that wouldn't happen and they'll be very very mad.

Also for the Scots who want to be in the EU and who are considerably less likely to leave if a deal leaves things similar to the present situation that's a big reason. Opening the closed door for the split of the UK might be the biggest effect of Brexit and no deal drastically increases the chances of that.
 

Peter Graham

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
2,671
Westmorland
Do you really think that Blair will ever come under any form of investigation, let alone prosecution, for making such misleading lies. Anybody can stand on the street corner, or internet forum, and denounce Blair, but that's as far as it will ever be allowed to go.
Nothing that is happening to Johnson is prevented from happening to Blair. It just requires someone with sufficient bloody-mindedness/ideology/money/time on their hands. The law is the law. No-one is above it. Not Blair. Not Johnson. My guess is that the Johnson prosecution will fail anyway.

Anyone can stand on the street corner or internet forum formulating grand conspiracy theories to explain things which are perfectly explicable in less excitable terms.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,492
T'Republic of Yorkshire
No deal does put up borders though and end the ability of Europeans to immigrate to Europe and vice e versa. This effects Ireland/Northern Ireland and could reinsert a cooled conflict there. All of sudden the radical Irish would have a reason to push for Northern Ireland to join again because they'd be a tangible consequence to the countries being separate, the EU was crucial in making that difference mainly semantic. The UK and EU also did swear up and down that wouldn't happen and they'll be very very mad.

Also for the Scots who want to be in the EU and who are considerably less likely to leave if a deal leaves things similar to the present situation that's a big reason. Opening the closed door for the split of the UK might be the biggest effect of Brexit and no deal drastically increases the chances of that.
If the EU and Ireland don't want a border, then they must renegotiate. Simple as that. The deal, as it stands, will not pass.

As for the Scots, if they want to leave based on the lack of a two year transition deal, more fool them. Because if they leave, they will be both outside the EU and the UK. They would be far wiser to see the eventual trade deal and how well the UK prospers outside the EU.
 
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Closed