Would a combined German-Japanese attack put the Soviets in deep trouble in WW2

While Germany are busy pushing back the Russians in 1941, what if both Germany and Japan agreed to make plans to carry out a 2 pronged attack on the Russians, in other words the Germans hammer the Russians in the west and then millions of Japanese soldiers come swooping in from the east, this is the 4 million strong force that gave the Chinese national army a beat down during the SecondSino-Japanese war. Could the Russians have collapsed by 1942? Would it have been possible for them to hold out against attacks from all directions from not only the 3.8 million well equipped German army but another 4 million veteran Japanese soldiers invading as well?
 
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aggienation

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Jul 2016
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The Japanese were generally ill equipped for large scale maneuver warfare on the Eastern Steppes. They lacked the armor, trucks, fuel, artillery. Their logistics system was probably the worst out of every major power of the war. Even if the Soviets would have had to shift forces from the eastern theater to the west to deal with the Germans, the remaining forces would still have squashed the Japanese. This was the primary lesson learned by the IJA during the Soviet Japanese border conflict of '39. They never took the lessons learned from that campaign and applied them to reforms. So in '41 they were just as unprepared as they were in '39. More so, since they just picked a fight with America and Great Britain too.
 
The Japanese were generally ill equipped for large scale maneuver warfare on the Eastern Steppes. They lacked the armor, trucks, fuel, artillery. Their logistics system was probably the worst out of every major power of the war. Even if the Soviets would have had to shift forces from the eastern theater to the west to deal with the Germans, the remaining forces would still have squashed the Japanese. This was the primary lesson learned by the IJA during the Soviet Japanese border conflict of '39. They never took the lessons learned from that campaign and applied them to reforms. So in '41 they were just as unprepared as they were in '39. More so, since they just picked a fight with America and Great Britain too.
Yes but even the Russians were in bad situations at the time they were fighting the Germans, Russia had no men no resources to spare and if the Japanese invaded it would have made the situation in Western Russia against the Germans probably even worse. Russia would struggle a lot fighting 2 formidable enemies at the same time. Lend lease was a big help to the Soviets in keeping their military alive with boots, food supplies, air craft, armoured vehicles etc. sure the Russians had huge numbers to their advantage over the Germans and Japanese, but what good is that when you can't even transport equipment etc to the East and vital supplies. They would have been sending men out there with no supplies no food and no clothes against a more prepared Japanese army.

Another point i'll make is that in the soviet japanese border conflicts the Japanese managed to hold their own quite well against the masses of soviet troops.

In the battle of Khalkhin Gol the Russians had double the manpower, double the aircraft, double the artillery, and 550 tanks compared to 73 on the japanese side. Yet the Russians still lost 27,000 men and the Japanese only lost 20,000.
In Lake Khasan the Japanese had no aircraft, no tanks, nothing but a few artillery pieces and the Russians had triple the manpower. And yet again the Russians still managed to lose more men in the battle.

In other words the Japanese had a tiny force of ill equipped undermanned soldiers that were literally a tiny fraction of the japanese army. That was a mere 38,000 men that did that, those soldiers were the equivalent of the battlehardened japanese soldiers fighting in china, the pacific and burma.

The Russians did have the population to sustain more losses than Japan or Germany. But that doesn't really change anything. Especially considering most of Russia's population is in the west, so every mile of land covered by the Germans greatly weakened Russia. You add millions of Japanese into the picture invading from the east and it's probably a death sentence for Russia.
 

aggienation

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Jul 2016
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Yes but even the Russians were in bad situations at the time they were fighting the Germans, Russia had no men no resources to spare and if the Japanese invaded it would have made the situation in Western Russia against the Germans probably even worse. Russia would struggle a lot fighting 2 formidable enemies at the same time. Lend lease was a big help to the Soviets in keeping their military alive with boots, food supplies, air craft, armoured vehicles etc. sure the Russians had huge numbers to their advantage over the Germans and Japanese, but what good is that when you can't even transport equipment etc to the East and vital supplies. They would have been sending men out there with no supplies no food and no clothes against a more prepared Japanese army.

Another point i'll make is that in the soviet japanese border conflicts the Japanese managed to hold their own quite well against the masses of soviet troops.

In the battle of Khalkhin Gol the Russians had double the manpower, double the aircraft, double the artillery, and 550 tanks compared to 73 on the japanese side. Yet the Russians still lost 27,000 men and the Japanese only lost 20,000.
In Lake Khasan the Japanese had no aircraft, no tanks, nothing but a few artillery pieces and the Russians had triple the manpower. And yet again the Russians still managed to lose more men in the battle.

In other words the Japanese had a tiny force of ill equipped undermanned soldiers that were literally a tiny fraction of the japanese army. That was a mere 38,000 men that did that, those soldiers were the equivalent of the battlehardened japanese soldiers fighting in china, the pacific and burma.

The Russians did have the population to sustain more losses than Japan or Germany. But that doesn't really change anything. Especially considering most of Russia's population is in the west, so every mile of land covered by the Germans greatly weakened Russia. You add millions of Japanese into the picture invading from the east and it's probably a death sentence for Russia.
Yes, the Russians did have the population to go after Germany and Japan. And yes, they had the manpower and equipment too. The reason they got hammered the first year after the Germans invaded Russia was because they were simply unprepared, they made (or more accurately Stalin made) a bunch of truly terrible decisions that cost them entire Armies at a time (encircled and destroyed/captured). They did have to strip the Eastern Siberian military districts of a lot of the combat power, but not all of it.

What could the Japanese do? Invade the Soviet Union? How would they do it? What IJA armies would be involved? What armored divisions would they use, when they didn't even possess any? Let alone armored corps, or armored armies.

The only thing the local Soviet commander would have had to do is fall back while the Japanese advance, then use their better mobility to swing around them, cut their supply line, and then destroy them utterly. Which is exactly what happened in Aug '45, which should demonstrate to you fully what happens when Japanese attempt to fight a modern power in open ground in maneuver warfare.

Fighting from within defensive bunkers that took months to build on some island and waiting for the Americans to try to take it is much different than attempting to take on armored corps on open Steppe, when you have little fuel, ammo, aircraft, tanks, artillery, trucks, food, etc.
 
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Where are these 4 million Japanese soldiers coming from? Once Japan decided to invade the Soviet Union, what was to prevent Great Britain from invading Burma from India? aggienation brings up logistics, which is what wins wars. One has to reasonably assume that all railways from the east would be cut by the Soviets, making the IJA rely on Siberian roads that are useful for what, 3-5 months out of the year? Sheer numbers cannot compensate for inadequate logistics or Mother Nature, which would have undoubtedly killed as many if not more IJA troops than the Soviets.
 
Where are these 4 million Japanese soldiers coming from? Once Japan decided to invade the Soviet Union, what was to prevent Great Britain from invading Burma from India? aggienation brings up logistics, which is what wins wars. One has to reasonably assume that all railways from the east would be cut by the Soviets, making the IJA rely on Siberian roads that are useful for what, 3-5 months out of the year? Sheer numbers cannot compensate for inadequate logistics or Mother Nature, which would have undoubtedly killed as many if not more IJA troops than the Soviets.
Yes but Siberia is a empty region, it's mostly a big cold forest and theres no people there to defend it how is it hard to take?, Russia's forces were stretched pretty thin as it is, how would they defend if Japan took Siberia and had all of it's full resources at its disposal? The Russians had already put out most of their reserves to fight the Germans they barely had any men left or resources, how can they hold off another 4 million Japanese troops attacking them while they are occupied with the Germans?
 
Yes, the Russians did have the population to go after Germany and Japan. And yes, they had the manpower and equipment too. The reason they got hammered the first year after the Germans invaded Russia was because they were simply unprepared, they made (or more accurately Stalin made) a bunch of truly terrible decisions that cost them entire Armies at a time (encircled and destroyed/captured). They did have to strip the Eastern Siberian military districts of a lot of the combat power, but not all of it.

What could the Japanese do? Invade the Soviet Union? How would they do it? What IJA armies would be involved? What armored divisions would they use, when they didn't even possess any? Let alone armored corps, or armored armies.

The only thing the local Soviet commander would have had to do is fall back while the Japanese advance, then use their better mobility to swing around them, cut their supply line, and then destroy them utterly. Which is exactly what happened in Aug '45, which should demonstrate to you fully what happens when Japanese attempt to fight a modern power in open ground in maneuver warfare.

Fighting from within defensive bunkers that took months to build on some island and waiting for the Americans to try to take it is much different than attempting to take on armored corps on open Steppe, when you have little fuel, ammo, aircraft, tanks, artillery, trucks, food, etc.
And yet the Japanese managed to move their men and equipment across difficult terrain in China and Burma, whats to say they manage to succeed in the wastelands of Russia? yes but tanks alone are not the only factor here, if they launched their attack a month or so after the Germans they could do a great deal of damage to the Soviets. the Japanese navy would be included as well, and with Japanese aircraft carriers circling along the coast, it is most likely that the IJA can have a swift march inwards and if the Russians decide to mobilise all of their tanks at them to stop their advance Japans zero fighters and bombers could be put to good use to counter their tanks and armoured vehicles.
 

aggienation

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Jul 2016
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And yet the Japanese managed to move their men and equipment across difficult terrain in China and Burma, whats to say they manage to succeed in the wastelands of Russia? yes but tanks alone are not the only factor here, if they launched their attack a month or so after the Germans they could do a great deal of damage to the Soviets. the Japanese navy would be included as well, and with Japanese aircraft carriers circling along the coast, it is most likely that the IJA can have a swift march inwards and if the Russians decide to mobilise all of their tanks at them to stop their advance Japans zero fighters and bombers could be put to good use to counter their tanks and armoured vehicles.
Before we continue, how far away from carriers do you think IJN fighters operated?

And what would have been the military objective? Where exactly where your four million IJA soldiers walking to? (because they didn't have the means to all get rides, lacking trucks and armor to piggy back on). Give me the name of the actual city that the IJA would be attacking toward. Or are you attempting to suggest that the IJA would have started a whole new war without even a legitimate military goal besides an abstract thought of "We can hurt the Soviets!"
 
Before we continue, how far away from carriers do you think IJN fighters operated?

And what would have been the military objective? Where exactly where your four million IJA soldiers walking to? (because they didn't have the means to all get rides, lacking trucks and armor to piggy back on). Give me the name of the actual city that the IJA would be attacking toward. Or are you attempting to suggest that the IJA would have started a whole new war without even a legitimate military goal besides an abstract thought of "We can hurt the Soviets!"
Let's say that first the Japanese have successfully secured China, Manchuria and and have a significant oil supply from a source of the dutch east indies and a good amount of resources and military production ready, they choose to target Vladivostok and Novosibirsk. There are ports and coastlines around Vladivostok where the Japanese could station their navy ships, if they set up a base here they should have the means to supply the men in this campaign. due to the distraction of the Germans in the west where the majority of the Russians are,the Japanese should be able to march through inland with limited resistance.
 
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aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
Let's say that first the Japanese have successfully secured China, Manchuria and and have a significant oil supply from a source of the dutch east indies and a good amount of resources and military production ready, they choose to target Vladivostok and Novosibirsk. There are ports and coastlines around Vladivostok where the Japanese could station their navy ships, if they set up a base here they should have the means to supply the men in this campaign. due to the distraction of the Germans in the west where the majority of the Russians are,the Japanese should be able to march through inland with limited resistance.
You still didn't answer how far a carrier fighter could travel away from the carrier.

Do you suppose the Japanese would have conducted an amphibious invasion of Vladivostok? That they would have picked up four million forces? Or would they have marched all the way from China? Or been ferried from China to Korea and then northwards, through mountains, into Manchuria?

When would you have timed this? Summer of '41? Because Stalin didn't even start stripping the Eastern military district of some of its units until fall and winter, the bulk of which were then used in the Winter counteroffensive. So unless the IJN is going to be conducting an amphibious attack on Manchuria in the dead of winter :)laugh:), then the Soviets would have been at FULL STRENGTH when dealing with the Japanese incursion.