Would a non-Communist Russia have been more successful at Russifying the "Near Abroad"?

Oct 2013
13,497
Europix
#11
Does anyone here have any thoughts on this question of mine?

Yes: get lost with all Your ifs! We've had enough of if. ... Darn! I ment: enough of it!!


More seriously.

To begin with, nor Russia, nor CCCP hadn't had such a strong, programmatic, long term policy of russification.

In both cases, it was more like having periods of russification and places of russification. It was more like "punctual", if You want.

The russification in CCCP was in part a "natural" process: the best way to advance (be it in political, economical or educational field) was learning Russian.Which led to "self-russification". (It's why a good part of Albanian became Muslims for example: not converted by OE, but self-converting for integrating and advancing in OE structures - mainly military).

In the eventuality of a non-communist Russia, it depends a lot on the development of Russia.

A reasonable advance on economic level could have created a tendency of self-russification.

But that could (would?) be countered by the possibility of a growing nationalism, that a more democratic Russia (than the authoritarian Tzarist/CCCP) could not silence.
 
Apr 2017
974
U.S.A.
#12
My percentage was inaccurate, it was 10%. The numbers were much much higher in the Caucasus republics.
10% sounds much more realistic. So, basically, most of the demographic changes in the Baltics were the result of mass Russian migration--not deportations of native Balts.

Also, were't there some prominent Ukrainians and Belarusians in the Soviet leadership? Pyotr Masherov, Andrei Gromyko, et cetera.
10% is still a lot, its an especially bitter memory in the Baltics. Latvia attempted to expel/strip the Russians of their citizenship after the cold war.
Limited exceptions. In the Hunt for the Red October (yes its a fiction book but based on some reality) the submarine captain was only able to reach that rank by concealing his half-Lithuanian heritage.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,559
SoCal
#13
Yes: get lost with all Your ifs! We've had enough of if. ... Darn! I ment: enough of it!!
I'm simply very curious about the different alternative paths that history could have taken. While the U.S. had a relatively good 20th century, Russia not so much. It's really sad because my own family members could have had much better lives had Russia avoided Bolshevism. :(

More seriously.

To begin with, nor Russia, nor CCCP hadn't had such a strong, programmatic, long term policy of russification.

In both cases, it was more like having periods of russification and places of russification. It was more like "punctual", if You want.

The russification in CCCP was in part a "natural" process: the best way to advance (be it in political, economical or educational field) was learning Russian.Which led to "self-russification".
Makes sense.

(It's why a good part of Albanian became Muslims for example: not converted by OE, but self-converting for integrating and advancing in OE structures - mainly military).
Why were the Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and Greeks in the Ottoman Empire largely immune to this, though?

In the eventuality of a non-communist Russia, it depends a lot on the development of Russia.

A reasonable advance on economic level could have created a tendency of self-russification.

But that could (would?) be countered by the possibility of a growing nationalism, that a more democratic Russia (than the authoritarian Tzarist/CCCP) could not silence.
All of this makes a lot of sense. Of course, there is another way to Russify territories--specifically have a lot of Russians move into these territories while encouraging the indigenous population of these territories to either move to other parts of Russia or emigrate. This approach actually achieved reasonably success in Latvia, Estonia, Crimea, southeastern Ukraine, northern Kazakhstan, and the Far East.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,559
SoCal
#14
10% is still a lot, its an especially bitter memory in the Baltics. Latvia attempted to expel/strip the Russians of their citizenship after the cold war.
Expel and strip of citizenship are different things. Did Latvia actually want to do both of these things?

Also, I'm certainly not disputing that it is an extremely bitter memory. I'm just saying that, in demographic terms, it wasn't decisive in regards to the Russification of these territories.

Limited exceptions. In the Hunt for the Red October (yes its a fiction book but based on some reality) the submarine captain was only able to reach that rank by concealing his half-Lithuanian heritage.
OK; makes sense.

BTW, was he Lithuanian Jewish or just Lithuanian?
 
Apr 2017
974
U.S.A.
#17
Expel and strip of citizenship are different things. Did Latvia actually want to do both of these things?

Also, I'm certainly not disputing that it is an extremely bitter memory. I'm just saying that, in demographic terms, it wasn't decisive in regards to the Russification of these territories.



OK; makes sense.

BTW, was he Lithuanian Jewish or just Lithuanian?
Yes, Latvia wanted and started to do this. They had to stop to join the EU.
Coupled with settlement by Russians the Baltic states population is (or was at the end of the cold war) about a third Russian (varies a bit by country), this puts them dangerously close to being absorbed into Russia (from their perspective).
His father was Russian that led Russian forces into Lithuania during ww2 and married a local Lithuanian woman.
 
Likes: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,559
SoCal
#19
Yes, Latvia wanted and started to do this. They had to stop to join the EU.
Coupled with settlement by Russians the Baltic states population is (or was at the end of the cold war) about a third Russian (varies a bit by country), this puts them dangerously close to being absorbed into Russia (from their perspective).
His father was Russian that led Russian forces into Lithuania during ww2 and married a local Lithuanian woman.
How many Russians did Latvia manage to deport (as opposed to having them leave Latvia voluntarily)?

Also, the Lithuanian Russian % never even reached 10%, but Yes, in Latvia and Estonia, it was much higher. Latvians almost became a minority in their own country by 1991.

In addition, thanks for this information!