Would it be a controversial opinion in military history circles to believe that Timur was a more impressive general than Genghis?


Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2-)According to Mamluk sources Golden Horde have 2 million soldier capacity.
This can destroy anything your ''Muh super power'' Jin.

Rashīduddīn and the Armenian Haython put the military strength of the Golden Horde at 600,000 mounted troops. Haython also noted that the Golden Horde inherited “two men out of every ten in the Eastern and Western Armies” or 17 out of 85 tumens. However, they probably assumed a Tumen was 10,000 like other Islamic historians when it was closer to 5,000-6,000 (See Allsen and Atwood).

In the Golden Horde of the early fifteenth century under Tokhtamish there were forty-three Russian tümens located between Nizhni-Novgorod in the east and Galicia in the west, north of the steppe zone occupied by the Tatars and the tümens of the regular Mongol-Turkish nomad forces. These were as follows:

Seventeen Tümens of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir
Five Tümens of the Grand Duchy of Nizhni-Novogorod
Five Tümens of the Tver
Tümen of Kiev
Tümen of Vladimir-in-Volnia
Tümen of Lutsk
Tümen of Sokal
Tümen of Podolia
Tümen of Kamenets
Tümen of Braslav
Tümen of Chernigov
Tümen of Kursk
Tümen of “Egolday”
Tümen of Liubitsk
Tümen of Smolensk
Tümen of Polotsk
Tümen of Riazan
Tümen of Pronsk
Tümen of Galich in Galicia (held by the Mongols until 1349)
Tümen of Lvov in Galicia (held by the Mongols until 1349)
Tümen of Sanok in Galicia (held by the Mongols until 1349)

These enrolled the adult male population of Mongol Russia, some 43 Tumen (around 220,000), with around 17 steppe Tumen (~90,000), in the early 15th century, or a total force of around 300,000 or so, matching the account of Haython. And these are potential mobilization, not a permanent standing army. Forget about the Jin, the Song source Xu Zizhitongjian noted that the Xi Xia alone had the ability to mobilize a comparable force of 300,000 (the Mongol compiled Song Shi gives an even higher number of 500,000).

The combined territories of the future U.S.S.R. in the early fourteenth century probably had around 16 million people (Biraben, 1979).
The population of Mongol Russia alone was probably around 10 million, this is much less than the 55 million people of the Jin that Chinggis Qan faced.

Also if you claim Jin more bureaucratic than Ottomans,you dont know anything.
Jin not even more bureaucraitic than Timur's Empire.
Stop exaggeration.
Have you studied the history of bureaucracy at all before you comment? The Chinese bureaucracy is the most complex and Weberian like system in the world prior to the 18th century.
H. G. Creel already brought that up since 1964 and his works are still widely cited today.
See Creel, The Beginnings of Bureaucracy in China: The Origin of the Hsien


"As early as the beginning of the Christian Era the Chinese Empire showed many similiarties to the super-state of the twentieth century. The importance of sheer size in stimulating the development of bureaucracy has often been remarked, and in territorial terms the Chinese Empire is the largest state that has endured for many centuries...Far more than the Roman Empire, and more than any comparable state before modern times, it was administered by a centralized bureaucratic government. "

Creel noted that the key to centralized Chinese power comes from the establishment of the bureaucratic unit of county (Hsien).

Two main reasons that Chinese bureaucracy is closer to a modern bureaucracy than any other before the 18th century is the division of duty among its officials at the regional level and the extension of the bureaucracy into the county level below the provincial level. For regional bureaucracy, although the civilian governor(taishou) had ultimate authority, the military functions were under the command of the Junwei whereas Roman or Persian provincial governors had both duties. The Roman bureaucracy only extended into the Provincial level, county level magistrates were independent from the government and appointed by the provincial authority. In another word, the provincial governors almost had absolute power over their provinces and the only thing keeping them in check is their time limit in office.
In China, county officials are appointed directly by central power, or the emperor and his board, not by the provincial governors, so China is first empire to create more than one level of regional bureaucracy and extend it into the smaller counties. Since the Han had over 1000 counties and over 100 provinces or each of these units had 2 or 3 officials, thats a lot of government posts compared to around 50 provinces in the Roman Empire. commandery(jun), each of these units had 2 or 3 officials, thats a lot of government posts compared to around 50 provinces in the Roman Empire.

The Xian governed a territory with populations as small as 1,000 in an empire. The Seljuks still divided their empire into Beyliks which had hereditary succession, and the early Ottoman empire still divided much of its empire that way.
Last edited: