Would Roosevelt have had more success at Yalta if his health had not been so poor?

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,516
Dispargum
#11
The Americans and British did not completely abandon Poland. I'm pretty sure it was the Western Allies that insisted on compensating Poland for the territory it lost to the USSR with territory taken from Germany. True, this could only happen with Soviet agreement, but I doubt the Soviets would have done it themselves.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,536
US
#13
The Americans and British did not completely abandon Poland. I'm pretty sure it was the Western Allies that insisted on compensating Poland for the territory it lost to the USSR with territory taken from Germany. True, this could only happen with Soviet agreement, but I doubt the Soviets would have done it themselves.
From what I understand, that was solely a Soviet decision. The eastern territory was coveted by the Soviets (parts of the Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus), while giving Poland land in the western portion was a way to get revenge on Germany. As we know from history, those western provinces had been a source of conflict bewteen Germany and Poland for centuries. It was another way to move ethnic Germans further west. A distant relative of mine, whose family had been Germanized while in Poland, left after the war for Cologne West Germany. The western portion was then used by the Soviets as a depository for all the Poles they evicted from the eastern territories they had appropriated. Futurist, what's your take?
 
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redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,604
Stockport Cheshire UK
#14
The Americans and British did not completely abandon Poland. I'm pretty sure it was the Western Allies that insisted on compensating Poland for the territory it lost to the USSR with territory taken from Germany. True, this could only happen with Soviet agreement, but I doubt the Soviets would have done it themselves.
They also got the Soviets to agree to free and fair elections in Poland post war, the fact that the Soviets didn't later uphold the agreement is not Churchill's and FDR's fault.
 
Likes: Futurist
Mar 2016
741
Australia
#15
Churchill first concern above all others , was the Empire and it's connecting sea lane
he sold Poland at Tehran , never mentioning the fact to the London Polish government
quite happy to have the polish division and units bleeding for Britain with a few speeches as counterpart

He did send British troops to bleed in Greece to protect the Mediterranean , empire oblige
Even though it’s probably pointless in engaging in debate on this topic since you seem completely biased and emotionally invested in this, but you’re either misinformed, ignorant or intentionally overlooking historic fact. There was nothing Churchill could have done for Poland that Stalin didn’t agree to - you seem to be forgetting that literally millions of Soviet troops were currently occupying the entirety of Poland - it was de facto Soviet territory. Even then Churchill pressured Stalin into promising to allow the Poles free elections after the war. It’s hardly Churchill’s fault that Stalin had no honour and betrayed every promise and pact he ever made. The Polish government-in-exile in London also refused a compromise where they would regain roughly two thirds of Poland, with the rest going to the Soviets. Churchill urged them to accept this, as the best deal that could get, but they refused repeatedly.

As to Greece - if it wasn’t for Britain’s involvement, it would have been taken over by communist rebels and would have become yet another satellite state of the Soviets for the next half century. Unless you want to argue that they would have been better off under Soviet overlordship than Western influence....
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,559
SoCal
#17
Even though it’s probably pointless in engaging in debate on this topic since you seem completely biased and emotionally invested in this, but you’re either misinformed, ignorant or intentionally overlooking historic fact. There was nothing Churchill could have done for Poland that Stalin didn’t agree to - you seem to be forgetting that literally millions of Soviet troops were currently occupying the entirety of Poland - it was de facto Soviet territory. Even then Churchill pressured Stalin into promising to allow the Poles free elections after the war. It’s hardly Churchill’s fault that Stalin had no honour and betrayed every promise and pact he ever made. The Polish government-in-exile in London also refused a compromise where they would regain roughly two thirds of Poland, with the rest going to the Soviets. Churchill urged them to accept this, as the best deal that could get, but they refused repeatedly.

As to Greece - if it wasn’t for Britain’s involvement, it would have been taken over by communist rebels and would have become yet another satellite state of the Soviets for the next half century. Unless you want to argue that they would have been better off under Soviet overlordship than Western influence....
Source for the two-thirds of Poland part?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,559
SoCal
#18
From what I understand, that was solely a Soviet decision. The eastern territory was coveted by the Soviets (parts of the Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus), while giving Poland land in the western portion was a way to get revenge on Germany. As we know from history, those western provinces had been a source of conflict bewteen Germany and Poland for centuries. It was another way to move ethnic Germans further west. A distant relative of mine, whose family had been Germanized while in Poland, left after the war for Cologne West Germany. The western portion was then used by the Soviets as a depository for all the Poles they evicted from the eastern territories they had appropriated. Futurist, what's your take?
How'd your relative become Germanized?

Also, Yes, I agree with your take here. Stalin wanted to piss off the Germans so bad that the Poles would continuously be in fear of Germany and thus seek a close alliance with the Soviet Union--who was perceived as being the only guarantor of Poland's post-WWII borders.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,824
Sydney
#19
Churchill had ( grugingly ) conceded the Curzon line and Poland loss of Lwov to the soviet ,
yet he hid this fact in his discussion with the Polish government in exile , leaving them to believe the question was not settled
that was unconscionable at best .
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,536
US
#20
How'd your relative become Germanized?

Also, Yes, I agree with your take here. Stalin wanted to piss off the Germans so bad that the Poles would continuously be in fear of Germany and thus seek a close alliance with the Soviet Union--who was perceived as being the only guarantor of Poland's post-WWII borders.
Enculturation over the centuries. They were actually Kashubian on the maternal side and German, or at least German for generations on the paternal. As you know, much of Pomorze/Pomerania?Pommern was under the influence of Germany. It wasn't uncommon for Slavs to be Germanized and then see themselves as such. After both world wars there was movement like this. There are stories after the Germans left and Kashubian/Poles took their residence,as is, furniture and all. For the Soviets, after the 2nd WW, this would have freed up space for the ethnic Poles from the east. i don't believe the U.K. or the U.S. had any interest or input in this process. The Soviets controlled Poland and eastern germany. The decision was theirs alone, as I understand it.
 
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