Would the confederacy have won if not for southern pride??

[Zip]

...Lincoln escaped to Pennsylvania he might try to wage war from there, but how much support would he have?

Well, the entire Midwest for one, the area that did the most to crush the rebellion anyway. I don't think American resolution was so weak as to fold at the fall of the capitol.

 

[Zip]

If we take Napoleonic tactics to be heavy assault columns covered by swarms of skirmishers, the use of heavy cavalry as shock assault troops and aggressive use of cannon in the attack; well then I see damned little Napoleonic going on in the War of the Rebellion.

 

[Artemis Barca]

If we take Napoleonic tactics to be heavy assault columns covered by swarms of skirmishers, the use of heavy cavalry as shock assault troops and aggressive use of cannon in the attack; well then I see damned little Napoleonic going on in the War of the Rebellion.

I don’t think Calvary was still being used as shock Troopsby the civil war..

For example Forrest used them to scout and would dusmount when fighting..

Horses are too big a target.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[duncanness]

The south had no chance of beating the fullly marshaled might of the American people...

The full night was never marshaled even at the end..

This is Shelby foote’s line but” the Ivy League rowing tournaments still took place all 5 years of the war..

The confederacy absolutely had the same chance the founding fathers did.. just be annoying and hope for a political shift.. I think if the south doesn’t do anything in the north, that would happen..

Imagine all the deaths without sumner, the town that was burned or any of the northern soil defeats that pissed off the population....


At that point all the deaths are for the intangible secession.. and I don’t think that does it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree: the south never had a chance of winning the war. But I didn't say that--I said that it was "southern pride" that dragged the war out.

 

[Artemis Barca]

I agree: the south never had a chance of winning the war. But I didn't say that--I said that it was "southern pride" that dragged the war out.

I agree but would add that I think it was responsible for the war, the blunders the confederacy made, dragging the war out and the aftermath up until today..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stevev]

Well, the entire Midwest for one, the area that did the most to crush the rebellion anyway. I don't think American resolution was so weak as to fold at the fall of the capitol.

It would be serious blow to morale but even with the loss of Maryland, the Union had the ability to crush the rebellion eventually. However by 1864 war weariness endangered a victorious ending for the Union. How much sooner would that happen if the US lost its capital in 1861? Mac Dowell's army degenerated into a mob of fleeing soldiers mixed with tourists out for an afternoon at the battle. Then came McClellan who saw hordes of rebels everywhere so he never had enough men. And then came........

 

[Artemis Barca]

It would be serious blow to morale but even with the loss of Maryland, the Union had the ability to crush the rebellion eventually. However by 1864 war weariness endangered a victorious ending for the Union. How much sooner would that happen if the US lost its capital in 1861? Mac Dowell's army degenerated into a mob of fleeing soldiers mixed with tourists out for an afternoon at the battle. Then came McClellan who saw hordes of rebels everywhere so he never had enough men. And then came........

I disagree and think it goes the opposite way and ignited the north to go full bore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Zip]

It would be serious blow to morale but even with the loss of Maryland, the Union had the ability to crush the rebellion eventually. However by 1864 war weariness endangered a victorious ending for the Union. How much sooner would that happen if the US lost its capital in 1861? Mac Dowell's army degenerated into a mob of fleeing soldiers mixed with tourists out for an afternoon at the battle. Then came McClellan who saw hordes of rebels everywhere so he never had enough men. And then came........

One never knows the effects of something that didn't happen. Some think things would have spun out along the same lines but somehow differently. But perhaps things might've been radically different: for instance freed from the need to protect Washington the Federals might've said to Hell with Virginia and devoted more resources to the western theater or to an eastern coastal campaign. Which might've given an earlier Federal victory rather than a later one. Who knows?

Regards

 

[stevev]

I disagree and think it goes the opposite way and ignited the north to go full bore.

Not if they go "full bore" with the same generals (before Mead, Grant and Sherman). Grant was considered an alcoholic and Sherman was just "crazy".

 

[benzev]

A) yup the war happens in the OP regardless.

B) your right sumner was only political that is my point.. it held zero military value but they sacrificed the “moral highground” by firing first..

Now the US wasn’t stopping secession.. they were attacked and defending themselves.. in the narrative I mean.. shooting first handed the narrative to Lincoln.

Even one of Jeff Davis’s advisors is recorded saying exactly that.. they even knew it was over southern pride..

C) the northern invasion and sumner were my examples of blunders..




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi,

The initial reason given by the Union was to restore the Union- which had been attacked.

The Confederacy decided to attack at Sumner (at least according to McPherson), because they needed to bring in the undecided border states and they feared that nonslaveholding whites might organise to exert strong pressure to return to the union.

Not attacking at Sumner did place Lincoln in a difficult position but at some stage the Union would need to reprovision the fort. The Confederacy would then have to decide how much force to use to prevent this.

In the event. the attack at Sumner brought in 4 of 8 border states but it also galvanised the Union.

Nevertheless, the South did have winning opportunities-

a. Had the West been more successfully defended, Lincoln might well have lost the 1864 election and the Copperheads take control.
b. A Confederate victory in the Gettysburg campaign might have produced international pressure for a compromise peace. Had Lee paid more attention to Longstreet's plan to slip around the Union flank, threatening Washington and try to force a Union attack upon a Confederate army on the tactical defensive, this might have been achieved.