WW2: how many Soviet soldiers died in 1943 in the battle of Kiev Kyiv?

Jul 2016
269
riverside
#1
This might be one of the bloodiest pages of the WW2. Apparently, no one had an accurate account of what was happening during the 1943 battle of Kyiv.

There are publications showing that during 1-2 days of November 1943, approximately 1 million Soviet soldiers drowned in the River Dnieper, 70-80% of those were ethnic Ukrainians including recently drafted civilians in civilian clothes. Many of those who perished in the Dnieper water were 16-18 years old boys drafted by the Red Army. Some people reference Marshal Zhukov who ordered to drown Ukrainians (all of them considered by the Kremlin as traitor nation) in the river.

In one story a German machine gunner lost his mind after hours of mowing attacking and poorly armed Red Army soldiers who were ordered to attack until the Germans run out of the bullets.

Battle of Kiev (1943) - Wikipedia



Please share related historic information.
 
Jul 2016
269
riverside
#3
Battle of the Dnieper. The Battle of the Dnieper was a military campaign that took place in 1943 on the Eastern Front of World War II. It was one of the largest operations in World War II, involving almost 4,000,000 troops stretched on a 1,400 kilometres (870 mi) long front.
Battle of the Dnieper - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper



Strength 26 August:
Red Army:
2,633,000 men[1]
51,200 guns and mortars[1]
2,400 tanks and assault guns[1]

German Army:
2,850 combat aircraft[1]
1,250,000 men
12,600 guns and mortars
2,100 tanks and assault guns
2,000 aircraft

Casualties and losses
Red Army:
1,687,164 men[2] <--- How many ?!!
417,323 killed or missing <--- How many ?!!
1,269,841 wounded or sick <--- How many ?!!

German Army:
281,407 men (21 August – 20 December)[3]
47,235 killed
199,998 wounded
34,174 missing
 
Jul 2016
8,963
USA
#4
Battle of the Dnieper. The Battle of the Dnieper was a military campaign that took place in 1943 on the Eastern Front of World War II. It was one of the largest operations in World War II, involving almost 4,000,000 troops stretched on a 1,400 kilometres (870 mi) long front.
Battle of the Dnieper - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper



Strength 26 August:
Red Army:
2,633,000 men[1]
51,200 guns and mortars[1]
2,400 tanks and assault guns[1]

German Army:
2,850 combat aircraft[1]
1,250,000 men
12,600 guns and mortars
2,100 tanks and assault guns
2,000 aircraft

Casualties and losses
Red Army:
1,687,164 men[2] <--- How many ?!!
417,323 killed or missing <--- How many ?!!
1,269,841 wounded or sick <--- How many ?!!

German Army:
281,407 men (21 August – 20 December)[3]
47,235 killed
199,998 wounded
34,174 missing
Let's make this very simple.

Which source did you read that told you a million Red Army soldiers drowned crossing the Dnieper?
 
Jul 2016
8,963
USA
#7
That wiki article is horribly written. What happened before the Dnieper campaign kicked off is glossed over when its part of the most important part. German forces were getting hauled back after the later phase Soviet counterattacks after Kursk and Hitler finally allowed a retreat to the Dnieper, which had not been fortified yet. The Soviets advanced close on their heels, without pausing, launching major attacks to cross the river. Once units were across, the Germans launched ferocious counterattacks to try to reclaim the west bank, at which point the Red Army had to themselves launch ferocious counterattacks to halt the German counterattacks. These attacks ground up both forces pretty hard, the Soviets caught the brunt because they ran the campaign in typical Soviet fashion, fast, hard, and with little thought of casualties. And it was a good decision because crossing the Dnieper was the major obstacle in driving the Germans out of the Ukraine. Taking it meant the Germans of the southern front/Ukraine sector were done for, they would have no good defensible terrain to hide behind for hundreds of miles west, and they lacked the forces and the air support for maneuver warfare (despite Manstein not acknowledging this). It also created the conditions for the famous balcony that would be exploited during Bagration in '44, which annihilated Army Group Center.
 
Jul 2016
8,963
USA
#8
Dear
aggienation
: to reply to your super-prompt question " Let's make this very simple. Which source did you read that told you a million Red Army soldiers drowned crossing the Dnieper?" I would strongly recommend to use your English language skills to read what is posted in my short previous message. Let's make it simple.
Your short previous message was you copying and pasting from a poorly written article in Wikipedia. Your original post in this thread specified that the Soviets were slaughtered, that a million drowned. Its not on me to prove it didn't happen, its on you to prove it did.
 
Likes: Gvelion
Jul 2016
269
riverside
#9
The cost was 1.6 million Soviet casualties, including over 417,000 killed or missing in action ... massive push for the Dnieper, more Soviet troops were lost than the United States suffered during the entire war. Sep 7, 2018

History Through the Viewfinder | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

The casualties were reported by Kremlin. Should we multiply their number by 5 to get the real picture? Or we should accept what Kremlin told us?
 
Jul 2016
8,963
USA
#10
The cost was 1.6 million Soviet casualties, including over 417,000 killed or missing in action ... massive push for the Dnieper, more Soviet troops were lost than the United States suffered during the entire war. Sep 7, 2018

History Through the Viewfinder | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
NOBODY IS SAYING THE SOVIETS DIDN'T TAKE HEAVY CASUALTIES.

But:

1. 1 million troops didn't drown.
2. Most of the fighting occurred on the west bank of the river during the counterattacks
3. The battle didn't end because Germans ran out of bullets to machine gun Red Army troops making the crossing, it ended months later when the operational counter attacks failed, when Army Group South failed in its objective to halt the Soviet foothold across the Dnieper, being severely mauled during it, losing a substantial part of their tanks, which they couldn't replace 1 for 1.

For the Ostfront, the Dnieper was the No. 1 terrain feature the Germans could have used to contain their expansion. Had they fortified it properly, it could have held the Soviets back for up to a year or more. They could have built an operational elastic defense based off of it, along with the Dvina river. However, they failed completely, the battle only lasted a few months to take it. Losing the Dnieper absolutely sealed the prospect that Germany was going to lose ALL of its conquered territories in the Soviet Union in a short time. They started out 1943 inside Russia itself, heavily strengthened and trying to remove a salient to redress their lines, they ended 1943 with Army Group South in tatters and the loss of half of the Ukraine, loss of Kiev, one of the largest cities in the Soviet Union, loss of the Dnieper defensive terrain feature (which meant Ukraine was lost, only a matter of time), which created the balcony used to launch Bagration in '44 which utterly destroyed Army Group Center, leading to the loss of terrain in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, all the way to Poland.

See that massive curve in the German lines between Army Group Center and other army groups to the south?




That was worth the casualties taken to take the Dnieper in '43.
 
Likes: Gvelion