WW2: how many Soviet soldiers died in 1943 in the battle of Kiev Kyiv?

[Underground]

This is good, and thank you for your reply. Below is the text from Russian-language publication:
Когда немцам стало понятно, что советская армия немного выдохлась, они нанесли сокрушительный удар по Букринскому плацдарму 29 сентября. Контрнаступления не удалось, но положение советских войск стало еще более плачевным. Именно с этим эпизодом битвы связана история про «чернопиджачников» - новобранцев, которым не выдавали даже форму, просто пуская на немецкие пулеметы.

Фраза маршала Жукова, о том, что украинцев надо топить в Днепре является, скорее всего, вымыслом, никакие серьезные источники ее не подтверждают. Что, впрочем, не отрицает того факта, что маршал действительно предпочитал «завалить врага трупами», и ему было без разницы чьими именно. Количество погибших на Букринском плацдарме точно неизвестно, но это никак не меньше, чем 250 000 человек.

Битва за Днепр: мясорубка в самом сердце Украины | znaj.ua

Translation: "

When the Germans ... September 29. Counteroffensive failed... It was the time related to the story of "black jackets"- new recruits who were not even given uniforms, those were just sent against German machineguns. ... The number of fatalities on Bukrinsky bridgehead is unknown, but it is not less than 250 000 people.

Basically, the top military officials of the Red Army were using "pidzhachniki" - meaning men dressed in civilian jackets (top portion of suit). I have read witness stories related to those "pidzhachniki" civilian men, many of them boys, 16-18 years old, who were drafted from the "liberated again" villages of Ukraine and ordered to attack Germans, to make sure Germans will run out of bullets. Many of those civilians drowned in Dnieper.

Would you believe that Kremlin would have an accurate count for those "pidzhachniki"?

More here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...show/a/12893&usg=AOvVaw2WBKbJ-j2MKlh70RWp9j32

Below is a nice propaganda photo for pidzhachniki men by Kremlin:



Any idea how many Ukrainian "pidzhachniki" were drowned and slaughtered during the "brilliant" military operation?

 

[aggienation]

Oh I get. Another Ukraine nationalist using Historum forum to promote more alleged crimes the Soviet Union perpetrated against the Ukraine people. I just double checked and looked at your posting history, and that completely confirms my suspicions in this thread are correct.

Why didn't you make this clear in the OP that this was just propaganda, and that you weren't actually trying to have a real discussion?

Have fun with this, maybe the pro-Russia nationalists will show up and you can have the argument you're trolling for. In the mean time, I'm out!

 

[Underground]

One famous historic example:

Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov (December 1 [O.S. November 19] 1896 – June 18, 1974) Was a Soviet military commander who, in the course of World War II, led the Red Army to liberate the Soviet Union from the Axis Powers' occupation, to advance through much of Eastern Europe, and to conquer Germany's capital, Berlin. Zhukov remained a popular figure in the Soviet Union until his death in 1974 although by his own admission he was much better dealing with military matters than with politics.

If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there.

• To General Eisenhower, 1945. Quoted in "Russia: The People and the Power" - Page 207 - by Robert G. Kaiser - History - 1976

In Nov 1943, Zhukov led the Soviet forces who recaptured the Ukrainian capital of Kiev.

 

[sparky]

In November 1943 , Kiev was liberated by General Vatutin , commander of the 1st Ukrainian front ,
Zhukov was in Moscow as deputy commander of the STAVKA

 

[Underground]

Zhukov had some influence, didn't he?

 

[sparky]

The Stavka was the central command organ for all military decisions , it managed all operations down to corps level
front commanders were given their orders and timetable , appropriate reinforcements and supplies from the strategic reserve RVGK

Beside his role in the planning of operations as part of a committee , Zhukov and Vasilievsky were often send as special representatives
to supervise and coordinate the several fronts during the fighting .....IE watch over the shoulders of the generals .

By 1943 Soviet generals were pretty good , the main issue was keeping them on a tight , some would say unrealistic , timetable
and preventing them to stray from their given attack directions into someone else paths

After the battle of Kursk and fourth battle of Kharkov , the "race to the Dnieper " was the pursuit of the retreating Germans
the stated goal was to prevent them from setting up a defensive line on the Dnieper .
Manstein with Hitler approval managed to withdraw ,
he won the race , just in time , after having utterly scorched the land behind him ,
he had left sacrificial units behind to slow down the advancing soviets
the RKKA managed to get some rather small bridgeheads on the run ,which were immediatly severely pounded by the Germans
a large paratroop launch of brigades strength behind the Germans was a pretty complete failure .

rushing the river was not going to be either easy or cheap , however it was necessary to get a foothold across
for the totality of the operation ,covering more than 1000km over four months , including the pursuit and fronts not directly in the Dnieper area
the dead were ~ 400.000 at least ,
the crossing itself wasn't the bloodiest part , holding on the small lodgements on the left banks was .

 

[Underground]

How do we know "the dead were ~ 400.000 at least " ?
Based on what?

Also, what do we know about the number of "pidzhachniki" - Ukrainian civilians, thrown in the battle, and how many died there? How many drowned in the Dnieper?


Can we connect the Holodomor of 1932-1933 conducted by the Kremlin - to exterminate 7 or so milliin Ukrainian peasants - with the battle for Kiev just 10 years later?

How these 10 years, - including "Ukrainians lived under German occupation, meaning they were collaborators" - changed (?) the desire of the Kremlin to exterminate more Ukrainian people?

Can we trust the "official" Kremlin data on 400 thousand dead ... dead who - soldiers or drafted civilians in their black and gray suits?

This may explain the point of the OP.

 

[Rudhessolf]

Funny story: Stalin stated that the first soviet soldier who passed the dneiper would get the hero of the soviet union medal so many of them started using even mattresses , barrels and planks as boats

 

[sparky]

there were more than 20 landings on the right bank , some very small none with a bridge
Manstein during his retreat had been careful to destroy all ships boats , barge and burning of all wooden buildings
all the soviet commanders were told the crossing had to be done fast , using whatever floated
this was done on the run
the big problem was that without a bridge or ferries , getting the heavy stuff and supplies across was very difficult
the Germans knew this and relentlessly attacked the crossing points ,
Vatutin units had severe losses but kept a toehold in most places
after an advance the Soviets drafted all males of fighting age , that was standard
in the case of the race to the Dnieper , that was not the case ,
Manstein had forcefully evacuated all civilians from the zone to prevent the soviets any reinforcement ,
took or killed the cattle ,burning and destroying everything

The basic source for number is Grigory Krivosheev,
he had had access to soviet military records and substantially increase the numbers of casualties from the official figures
his methodology is the reference for discussions on the soviet side numbers
Glantz , Hartmann and Erickson follows his numbers , there is some debate around them but it is with variation of less than 10%

for comparison ,the German side with much better records also has some uncertainties which historians debate endlessly
for the second half of 1943 the "irrecoverable losses" ( dead , and grievously wounded ) of the RKKA are set at 1.4 millions men ,
this include Kursk , the Crimea , the Taman peninsula , the Leningrad fronts and a dozen other offensives


Underground , you are not doing history you are doing propaganda , give good sources and structure your arguments

 

[sparky]

There is no connection between the great famine with the battle of Kiev ,
different purpose and different means
the "Kremlin" had no intent to exterminate the Ukrainian people , just to oppress them like they oppressed everybody else
Stalin was an equal opportunity oppressor , everybody was oppressed , nationalism was the greatest crime

He was not Russian and many of his henchmen were not either