Yet Another Slander To Ataturk

Jul 2018
31
Istanbul
Note: For some reason my computer make them upper letters whenever I type WHO. So it is not on purpose, ignore it please.
Note 2: Unfortunately what I am saying did not fit to one entry I am permitted to send so I divided it into three.

For those WHO dont know Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is the founder of modern Turkish republic(dont read if you already know it):

He was born in 1881 Ottoman Empire Selanik/Salonica/Thesaloniki city. He became an Ottoman ranked soldier and first got famous in 1915 disasterous Dardanelles campaign of allies. He famously disobeyed his German general Liman von Sanders(WHO was fooled by the fake French landing ships) and placed his troops according to himself. Liman von Sanders was one of the inexperienced lets say, soldiers of German Empire that they sent on Turks and he had a very bad fame surrounding himself between his Turkish commanders. But a German admirer Enver Pasha always insisted on him. Anyway, so the reasons he did this was because he foresaw the exact locations the British were going to make the landings and he foresaw how fatal it will be for the Turkish army. In Conkbayırı, Arıburnu and Anafartalar; once the British would land, they would surround and trap the entire Turkish army without any resistence. See the significance yourself: ( Google Image Result for https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/gallipoli-invasion-1000.jpg?itok=x_V9iFcJ )
You see the Kumkale on Asian side ? Thats where the Sanders was at the whole war. You see the Ari Burnu on the upper side of the map ? See how bottle neck it is for the entire peninsula ? Once British landed at there and if they captured that neck, the army would be cut off from the rest of the Empire.
Anyway Atatürk prevented that and his fame despite Enver and Sanders efforts spreaded all over Anatolia and this later helped him to be the leader of Turkish national movement.

Atatürk also fought against Russians in eastern front in WW1 and famously took two cities back from them. Muş(Mush) and Bitlis. Russians then recaputed Muş and Atatürk took it back from them again.

But of course Ottomans inevitably lost WW1 and the British whom previosly failed to take Istanbul via Gallipoli, peacefully occupied Istanbul without shooting a bullet. Both the Mondros Armistice and the later Sevr ''Peace'' treatements were openly ''death sentences to Turkish nation. See:
(they would even take this later on)

The traitorous Istanbul government(Ottomans, Groom Ferit(groom of last Sultan Fahreddin)) signed this treaty while Atatürk and many other ex-Ottoman soldiers passed to Anatolia and started the Turkish war of Sovereignity (1919-1922).
In this war the Greek army was the Pioneer of British Empire and Lloyd George both materially and spiritually put the Englands complete support behind Greek army.

Atatürk and his comrades defeated this army which was superior in both numbers and equipment/technology. One year after the war in 1923 the Turkish republic was found and in the upcoming years Atatürk made many revolutions for the sake of modernising Turkish people. Such as latin alphabet, women rights, modern clothes, abolishment of caliphate and secularism, modernised education etc.


Now this is an extremely tiny summary. I havent mention TONS OF THINGS such as how Istanbul Ottoman government and caliph declared Greek&British armies the armies of Islam and caliphate, how he ordered(fetwa) the execution of Atatürk and his comrades, how he founded an army in British provision called Kuvayı Inzibatiye in order to fight along with Greeks and British. I also competely ignored the fights in southern(against French) and eastern fronts but dont worry the western front was the real thing. The British supported Greek army was the major threat. I also didnt mention how Atatürk arranged, organised many congresses to organise the war.
For those who are interested you can read more about him in Andrew Mango, Ataturk.

Now Ataturk have made two very notorious enemies among his many enemies; islamists and British(the imperialist ones). I presume you can understand the reasons for this. Islamists are a people that would rather have Turkey a puppet state similiar to Saudi Arabia as long as their wicked system continued. Which is why Ottoman government sided with British. Sultan Vahdettin is seen as a traitor because he was in the mentality of '' Oh, we shall not anger the British, we shall give them whatever they want, we shall do what they say as long as they dont tauch our crown !'' He was fine with being a despot of England even if that meant Turkey would be a puppet state.

Now on top of Atatürk spoiling their plans of being despots but still kings under England Atatürk also abolished caliphate, brought modern education, destroyed tariqahs, cults and translated Quran to Turkish(remember reform of Martin Luther, he also translated Bible into German and religious authorities hated that).
 
Jul 2018
31
Istanbul
Why British imperialists would hate Atatürk ? Well, apart from giving them one of the if not the worst defeats in Gallipoli (which almost ended a man like Churchill's carrier) he also led the Turkish war of sovereignity and completely spoiled all the projects, all the plans British had.

After the Greek army was defeated, now it was the British armys turn. They were occupying the European part of Turkey, the straits and so on. Remember this: Google Image Result for https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HZdDS9518rc/hqdefault.jpg Yeah that orange part was occupied by British. Turkish army after Greeks were defeated quickly arrived at Chanakkale(Gallipoli (fate :D)). This part is very important: They started crossing to the European side. British army on the other side demanded orders from Lloyd George and some other people. A quarrel began among their leaders. England could not go for another war, it was already bankrupt and mournful(I mean causalties they had previously). English people were already pressuring Llloyd George government for their endless and pointless supports to Greeks and to be honest Turkish national movement in international area introduced the righteousness of their case very successfully. In fact Lloyd George and his men fell from government regardless later on.

British completely failed to do what they did to other middle eastern countries with Syckes Picott. Their only success was taking Kirkuk and Mosul for their colony Iraq and that was thanks to the islamists again. Sheyh Said rebelled and Turkey was busy fighting them. Later Cia confirmed according to their archives, Sheyh Said was a British agent.


Anyway, I kept it very long.

Now back to this slander:

I heard that Mustafa Kemal(wasnt Atatürk at that time) in 14 November 1918 after Ottoman Empire was defeated in WW1 arrived at Istanbul Pera Palace Hotel (British occupied Istanbul in 13 November 1918).
In Pera Palace Hotel he informed the hotel manager he wanted to drink coffee with a British journalist Ward Price. This man was known for his closeness to British intelligence.
Ward Price, after consulting to general staffs intelligence service colonel agreed to meet with Mustafa Kemal.


According to Ward Price's statement in 1918 in Daily Mail Newspaper,
Ward Price met with Mustafa Kemal. He found him handsome, and mannish.
According to him Mustafa Kemal said: ''this cant go like this, the country needs to be changed throughly, to be renovated.''

So he mentioned he met with Atatürk in 1918 but he doesnt mention anything like ''Atatürk wants to be a British governor'' or anything alike.

Now the year is 1939. One year after Atatürk passed away.
Ward Price arrives at Istanbul and gives an interview with Turkish newspaper Cumhuriyet.
He says ''to be honest at the time I didnt give much attention to his words. This will be my carriers biggest mistake that I will always remember, not noticing this matchless genious.''
Thats the entire thing he said nothing else !

Now the year is 1957. 18 years after his inteview with Cumhuriyet, 19 years after Atatürk having passed away and 39 years after his speech with Atatürk and him making a statement over it in Daily Mail. Remember 39 years:
Ward Price writes a book called Extra special Correspondant. And guess what he says about his speech with Atatürk in 1918 ? Atatürk also told him(?) ''If English want to claim responsibility on Anatolia, they are going to need to work with experienced Turkish governors. In this frame of authority, I would like to know if there is a fitting place for me in this frame of authority.''


Now this has been a huge tool for islamists today in Turkey until today just like their other slanders(some of them arent even bad to be slanders but they are bad according to them, such as him being jewish or Greek or Albanian but they are also wrong anyway).

I would like to mention a few things about this slander. I mean for me this is totally absurd for Atatürk to mean this seriously even if he indeed said it !

1- Istanbul is occupied in 13 November 1918 and Atatürk arrived at the same time. Just one day before 14th November 1918. So Atatürk without even evaluating the situation just threw himself like that saying ''make me a British governor ''? We know he was arranging meeitngs with many men in Istanbul from government. With his comrades, with statesmen, with Ottoman government including Sultan he arranged meetings. He stayed in Istanbul for 6 months from 13th November 1918 to 16 May 1919. In this 6 months open and secret he made many meetings with these people, he planned every detail of Turkish Sovereignity War in Istanbul.

2- Price's contradictions: Neither in 1918 nor in 1939 Price never mentions about Atatürk making such a demand. Does such an important thing like this suddenly come to his mind in 1957 ?

3- Price on Refet Pasha : Price says Refet Pasha(one of Ataturks comrades) was with Atatürk during the speech. But in 14th November 1918 Atatürk hadnt met with Refet Pasha yet. Of course I cant say if he mistaked someone else with him.

4- Just one week ago, Atatürk was talking about resisting to British. From 3 to 8 November 1918, Atatürk was in Adana and in his telegrams to Ahmet İzzet Pasha(vizier/prime minister and also minister of war), he mentions he ordered his troops to respond back to British by firing.
Some of the parts from his telegram:
''If we deliver everything British demand from us, later on we wont be able to put a barrier on British ambitions''
''I ordered the 7th army to prevent British to land on Iskenderun by firing at them whatever reasons or excuses they have.''
''Endowing the result British have with our helps, for being an Ottoman and specially for todays government is a dark page in history''
''My creation wont permit me to cooperate with those WHO are not British and seeing the seductive provacative moves of British righteous.''
 
Jul 2018
31
Istanbul
5- As he said, the first resistence with guns to British was made by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Because of Mondros armistice's allowance, British and French mine scanning ships started scanning İskenderun Bay. İskenderun is on a very strategical location. Wtihin a few days the real intention of allies was revealed: occupying Iskenderun. In 4 November 1918 they started talking about it. But Atatürk telegrafed in 5 November 1918 to 7th army, 4th army corps, 41.division command on his command to fire at any British landing on Iskenderun Bay.


So over this command of Atatürk, 41st division's artillery, strengthened by the artillery of 3rd army corps artillery positioned themselves enabling them to get a good shot on any landing. And in 6 November 1918 he informed both the minister of War Ahmet İzzet Pasha and also the British commandership via telegraph that he will be shooting at any landing attmepts. Over this determinded attitude of his, British started making pressure on Ottoman government.

According to 7th Army operation department officers in 6 November 1918 41st division fired at some landing ships and navy of British-French. This was a fire of warning according to a young officer(cpt.) at there named Muzaffer Ergüder.

Over this, the British-French force never attempted on landing.

So I assume, this man Price who says '' In 14 November Atatürk told me he want to be a British governor !'' was unaware that not long just 8 days ago Atatürk ordered firing on British navy in Iskenderun.

6- In 21 May 1919, 2 days after Atatürk landed on Samsun, Anatolia (which is the day seen as starting of the Turkish war of Sovereignity(19 May 1919 - 30 August 1922)) the very offer was made by British but Atatürk rejected it. In 21 May 1919 when Atatürk met with two British security captains in order to speak about the security of Samsun (L.H. Hurst and two others) English officers openly told him that Ottoman government cant govern the country anymore so at least for a few years the country needs the protection and involvement of outsiders and that Turkey should be British mandate. Atatürk over this told them that problems will be solved and he rejected this offer precisely.
Why would a man WHO wanted to be a British governor refuse this ?

7- What do historians think ?
Both Turkish and non-Turkish historians think this claim does not represent the truth. Prof. Sina Akşin says ''taking this even serious is very hard. In the years he was planning his national movement and when he put his eyes on military supervision Mustafa Kemal making such an offer especially putting a hotel manager and a journalist between is not something to believeable. Even if him saying these words would have been proved, it would be logical to think it wasnt made seriously but for another purpose''
Doğan Avcıoglu and Sadi Borak also pointing out the anti British attitude of Atatürk, state that this is far from convincing.

British historian Andrew Mango says ''we should keep any possible interpretation differences and forgetfulness in mind''
Lord Kinross on the other hand interprates this as Atatürk trying to ''take a sounding of British''

Prof Bernard Lewis in his work called ''The Emergence of Modern Turkey'' published in 1961 he does not even leave place for this claim.

So while none of the authority historians inside and outside Turkey take this claim seriously, our Vahdettin lovers, libtards, pro-Ottomans, islamists, Paranoid over Atatürk bigots HUG, CUDDLE this claim of Ward with four arms.

Islamist journalist author Taha Akyol in his ''But Which Atatürk ?'' book, Mustafa Armagan in his ''WHO Is Traitor, WHO Is Patriot ?'' (the patriot is Vahdettin XD) book try so.

8- Now lets say this claim is true. Atatürk indeed said those words and for some reason Ward forgot about this both in 1918 and 1939 but remembered it in 1957.
After WW1 when British occupied Turkey in order to pass to the Anatolian side you needed to have a British visa. It was a time in which all the patriots were thrown into jail in Malta. Atatürk had to make sure he wasnt a target for British and for sure his Gallipoli background and what he did in Iskenderia wasnt helpful.

He was actually publishing a newspaper called Minber at those years and he was avoiding angering British. Atatürk even stayed close to cooperative sultan Vahdettin.

One thing was for sure, if he was made a British governor it would have been easier for him to pass to the Anatolian side. Like I said above, you needed a British visa to pass to Anatolia in those years. Andrew Mango is also in the same conclusion.

Now lets look at Vahdettin and Istanbul Ottoman Government WHO these islamists are so eager to defend.

1- British journalist W.Price met with Sultan Vahdettin too. In 24 November 1918, Vahdettin said ''I have inherited my strong love and admiration feelings to Great Britain from my father Sultan Abdulmejid. I will do my best to improve the relations between my country and Great Britain. I can safely say that Turkish nation on this regard share my feelings.''
Note: These words did not wait until 1957 to be published. :D 12 days later in 6 August 1918 it was published in Daily Mail as it is. :D

2- Vahdettins groom Ferit Pasha( also the grandvizier/prime minister) was an honorary member of English Sympatisers Association. This associations aim was to bring British mandate over Turkey. Are you curious about the founder of this assosiacion ? Said Mullah. Sounds like a total secularist right ? Google Image Result for https://odatv.com/images/resimler/F-1(8).jpg This is his picture.
By the way we captured the letters between this ''Said Mullah'' and a British agent named Robert Frew. We found this man had been sending huge sums of money to Said Mullah.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Thanks Ardabas34, a contribution like this is really valid. Expect criticisms and opposite chronicles of the fact [this is a history forum and you know how historical debates work], anyway you have enriched Historum.
 

Dreamhunter

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
7,486
Malaysia
Just an idea. How about the Turkish powers that be prepare a special official government-endorsed counter-slander document with the specific purpose of clearing Mustafa Kemal's name from disgusting lowlife BS like this.
 

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,610
Dispargum
Mod edit: This post below was included in a duplicate thread which has been closed/deleted.

peccavi said:
British policy throughout the 19th Century and up to WW1 was to support the Ottoman Empire against depredations of Russia - hence the Crimean War. Indeed without British support it is highly likely that Turkey or at least the Straits would have been occupied by Russia.

There was however one exception to the policy - Greece. Every British schoolboy learnt of the cradle of democracy - Ancient Greece and in my time also learnt Ancient Greek in addition to Latin at school. The massacre of Bulgarians by the Ottomans in 1876 caused outrage amongst the Liberal (leftish) Gladstone opposition which the Conservative government managed to ignore in view of the Russian threat.

I think you have to remember events like this and the fact that Lloyd George, Prime Minister, Liberal Party and Christian evangelist considered the fact that Ottomans had joined the German War effort was a betrayal. He was certainly anti-Turkish.

In any case the Entente, Britain, France and Italy (and prior to the Bolshevik revolution Russia) had agreed that one of the War aims was to internationalise the Straits so that the Black Sea should not be opened or closed at the whim of any one power.

Anyway, the beauty about British documents is that you are free to read all the minutes of the proceedings in the Government Cabinet (although you may need to visit the National Archives in London to obtain some of them).

Here is a summary and a couple of paragraphs which I have lifted.

The Cabinet Papers | Kemal's nationalists and the collapse of government

Greek-Turkish war
The Cabinet was determined to defend the straits, despite the lack of British forces to send. Instead, the Greeks were co-opted, with the understanding that the Greek enclave of Smyrna would be enlarged if they helped to destroy Turkish nationalism. In 1921 the unpredictable nature of the Greek-Turkish war and the view that the Greeks were often close to victory helped Lloyd George and Curzon defend the government's policy from within the Cabinet.

Defeat of the Greek forces
Matters were brought to a head with the defeat of Greek forces in Asia Minor and the capture of Smyrna by Kemalist forces in August and September 1922. On the 7 September the Cabinet decided to defend the straits and Constantinople. By 15 September both the Admiralty and the War Office had raised concerns about the practicalities of the policy, but the Cabinet remained adamant that the straits must not fall under Turkish military control. As Kemal's forces continued marching towards the straits, Cabinet consensus on defending Constantinople started to collapse, and resulted in the decision not to hold the city.

I hope this helps your research.

PS Greek Population of Western Turkey was very large and Smyrna (Izmir) at that time had a larger Greek population than any Greek City including Athens. The Greek war aim was to seize and hold a sliver of Western Turkey from Istanbul to Marmara.
 
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