Sacred band of Thebes

[WinterIsComing]

Thought I would post a thread of my favourite historical unit: The sacred band of Thebes.

The sacred band of Thebes was a elite troop of homosexual couples created by the Theban general Gorgidas in around 378 B.C. "Since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another." was the inspiration Gorgidas got to create the regiment. After Sparta took control of Cadmea, the Theban general Pelopidas took it back and assumed command of the sacred band (after the death of Gorgidas) with his friend Epaminondas, under his command the Theban sacred band won many victories, like the battle of Tegyra and, Leuctra. The Theban sacred band was destroyed by Phillip II and Alexander the great along with the Theban hegemony and the last leader of the Theban sacred band Theagenes, who died at the battle of Chaeronea with his men It's funny how Pelopidas took Phillip II as a hostage when he was a child, bringing him to Thebes, where Phillip learned his military tactics and would eventually destroy Thebes. No? Okay. The sacred band of Thebes made Thebes great. Today there's a monument dedicated to the sacred band at Chaeronea, and there lies the bodies of the unit arranged in seven rows.

Sorry for this short crude thread!

 

[DENIS]

Thought I would post a thread of my favourite historical unit: The sacred band of Thebes.

The sacred band of Thebes was a elite troop of homosexual couples created by the Theban general Gorgidas in around 378 B.C. "Since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another." was the inspiration Gorgidas got to create the regiment. After Sparta took control of Cadmea, the Theban general Pelopidas took it back and assumed command of the sacred band (after the death of Gorgidas) with his friend Epaminondas, under his command the Theban sacred band won many victories, like the battle of Tegyra and, Leuctra. The Theban sacred band was destroyed by Phillip II and Alexander the great along with the Theban hegemony and the last leader of the Theban sacred band Theagenes, who died at the battle of Chaeronea with his men It's funny how Pelopidas took Phillip II as a hostage when he was a child, bringing him to Thebes, where Phillip learned his military tactics and would eventually destroy Thebes. No? Okay. The sacred band of Thebes made Thebes great. Today there's a monument dedicated to the sacred band at Chaeronea, and there lies the bodies of the unit arranged in seven rows.

Sorry for this short crude thread!

Hi Winter, I brought up the Sacred Band in another thread (see below) saying they were homosexual etc and quite a few board members seemed to doubt there was any truth to it. Perhaps you could take a look at their arguments and tell me what you think.

http://historum.com/ancient-history/57623-achilles-patroclus.html

 

[WinterIsComing]

Hi Winter, I brought up the Sacred Band in another thread (see below) saying they were homosexual etc and quite a few board members seemed to doubt there was any truth to it. Perhaps you could take a look at they're arguments and tell me what you think.

http://historum.com/ancient-history/57623-achilles-patroclus.html

Did read the thread. I think that some of the members disregard the fact that homosexuality was accepted in ancient rome/greece? In Rome homosexuality was normal, it was just a matter of who did the penetration and so on. It was also normal in ancient military Greece. Maybe people just find it hard to believe? Ancient times didn't have "don't ask, don't tell" policies.

 

[DENIS]

Did read the thread. I think that some of the members disregard the fact that homosexuality was accepted in ancient rome/greece? In Rome homosexuality was normal, it was just a matter of who did the penetration and so on. It was also normal in ancient military Greece. Maybe people just find it hard to believe? Ancient times didn't have "don't ask, don't tell" policies.

Agreed. It always amuses me that some of the later historians actually claimed homosexuality as one the causes for the decline of the Roman empire, I believe Gibbons says as much in his DECLINE AND FALL.

 

[Menshevik]

In Rome homosexuality was normal, it was just a matter of who did the penetration and so on.

That's what I said too! I also said that the ancient Greeks and Romans probably didn't have the ... or bisexual concepts we have now. Your partner, male or female, was just that, a sexual partner, didn't matter the ... it was kinda all the same. Although, you might receive some small ridicule if you were the submissive partner. As a side note, I wonder who would of won if cavalry was absent at Chaeronea, Thebes or Phillip?

 

[tornada]

That's what I said too! I also said that the ancient Greeks and Romans probably didn't have the ... or bisexual concepts we have now. Your partner, male or female, was just that, a sexual partner, didn't matter the ... it was kinda all the same. Although, you might receive some small ridicule if you were the submissive partner. As a side note, I wonder who would of won if cavalry was absent at Chaeronea, Thebes or Phillip?

That's because much of the post-hellenic view on sexuality was imposed by the church. Sexuality was worshiped in the pagan world, and depending on your school of thought homosexuality, bi-sexuality and hetero-sexuality was encouraged, but all three lived side by side. The Church took a decided stance against all things Pagan, and so concepts such as freedom of sexuality, respect for women, all took a severe beating

 

[WinterIsComing]

That's what I said too! I also said that the ancient Greeks and Romans probably didn't have the ... or bisexual concepts we have now. Your partner, male or female, was just that, a sexual partner, didn't matter the ... it was kinda all the same. Although, you might receive some small ridicule if you were the submissive partner. As a side note, I wonder who would of won if cavalry was absent at Chaeronea, Thebes or Phillip?

Exactly!
Different stories are told at the battle of Chaeronea, but without cav, I think Thebes and the city states might have won. Because then Alexander wouldn't have broken in the Theban line with his companions. Thebes and the other city sates would then have a fighting chance.

 

[tornada]

Exactly!
Different stories are told at the battle of Chaeronea, but without cav, I think Thebes and the city states might have won. Because then Alexander wouldn't have broken in the Theban line with his companions. Thebes and the other city sates would then have a fighting chance.

Cavalry was the whole point. It was the first time in greek history (and possibly world history) that a cavalry force was deployed to effectively smash a spear line. It demonstrated the effectiveness of well trained heavy cavalry.

The cavalry tactics would be what defined Macedonian Warfare, even more than the sarissa, since alexander would use the pikes to pin an enemy force and cavalry to smash them (hammer and anvil). Phillip was the one who had developed the tactic, Alexander refined it.

Without cavalry, the war itself would never happened, cavalry was the whole point of Macedonian domination. So removing it from the equation is like wondering what the Greek forces would have been like without hoplites, or Roman forces without legionaries

 

[WinterIsComing]

Cavalry was the whole point. It was the first time in greek history (and possibly world history) that a cavalry force was deployed to effectively smash a spear line. It demonstrated the effectiveness of well trained heavy cavalry.

The cavalry tactics would be what defined Macedonian Warfare, even more than the sarissa, since alexander would use the pikes to pin an enemy force and cavalry to smash them (hammer and anvil). Phillip was the one who had developed the tactic, Alexander refined it.

Without cavalry, the war itself would never happened, cavalry was the whole point of Macedonian domination. So removing it from the equation is like wondering what the Greek forces would have been like without hoplites, or Roman forces without legionaries

Yea, I read about that in Cormec O'brien's book: fall of empires.

 

[Port]

I have read conflicting reports about homosexual relationships between young men in the Spartan Agoge with older soldiers. Some say it was a mentor relationship another said in included sexual relationships. It is not unusual in warrior societies to acept homosexuality. (pre church)

 

[tornada]

I have read conflicting reports about homosexual relationships between young men in the Spartan Agoge with older soldiers. Some say it was a mentor relationship another said in included sexual relationships. It is not unusual in warrior societies to acept homosexuality. (pre church)

Maybe there was a bit of both. Some pairs may have been homosexual, others may not have been. But the people who recorded history would let their bias of Sparta and Homosexuality (either in favor or against one or both) to color their descriptions.

For example, if a particular historian felt that homosexuality was bad and so too were the Spartans, he would record that the Spartan Agoge was rife with homosexuality.

Say another person approved of Sparta but not of Homosexuality then he would probably write that the Spartans indulged very little in homosexuality.

It's all a matter of perspective, which is why you have conflicting stories.

Certainly the absence of a pervasive bias against homosexuality (due to the influence of the Church) would have resulted in a higher prevalence of it and different groups of society would have had differing levels of approval or disapproval at different points in history

 

[agesilaos]

The Sacred Band of Thebes

I spent years researching the SBT in Greek and a little Latin, wrote my History thesis on it and turned it into a book. And now I'm shamelessly advertising it here.

375263 - The Sacred Band of Thebes - $19.95

It may not be the greatest book on the SBT, but it's the only one. - CH

 

[agesilaos]

The Spartans on same/... (male) relationships.

Xenophon (430-360), an Athenian aristocrat who lived with the Spartans, explains the Lykourgan idea of love:

If someone, himself being such a man as is proper, admiring the soul [the Hellenic word is psyche] of a boy, should try to make him a blameless friend and to be with him, he [Lykourgos] praised him and considered this to be the most beautiful type of training. But if someone should appear to be desiring the body of a youth, by making this a shameful thing, he [Lykourgos] arranged among the Lakedaimonians that, with respect to sexual pleasures, lovers no less kept their hands off boys than parents kept their hands off their children and brothers kept their hands off brothers.http://historum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1487921#_edn1

One may be tempted to think that the reality of the situation might have been quite different - especially in a city where the biggest holiday of the year was called the “Festival of the Naked Boys” (Gymnopaideia). Perhaps the physical relationship that might develop over time was considered a natural adjunct of the more elevated spiritual connection. As it was, the Spartan system worked fine for a long time: older boys formed relationships with their younger counterparts, and each tried his best to be a credit to the other.

http://historum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1487921#_ednref1
Xenophon, The Lacedaemonians, II. 13.

 

[Fred Ray]

Cavalry was the whole point. It was the first time in greek history (and possibly world history) that a cavalry force was deployed to effectively smash a spear line. It demonstrated the effectiveness of well trained heavy cavalry.

The cavalry tactics would be what defined Macedonian Warfare, even more than the sarissa, since alexander would use the pikes to pin an enemy force and cavalry to smash them (hammer and anvil). Phillip was the one who had developed the tactic, Alexander refined it.

Without cavalry, the war itself would never happened, cavalry was the whole point of Macedonian domination. So removing it from the equation is like wondering what the Greek forces would have been like without hoplites, or Roman forces without legionaries

There has been quite a bit of research done on the subject of cavalry at Chaeronea, with the modern consensus being that it did not play an important role. The battle was fought between terrain barriers (highlands to the southwest and a river to the northeast), thus limiting any involvement by horsemen (which Philip seems to have anticipated in bringing only a much reduced force of Companions on the campaign). In studying the ancient texts and battlefield topography, P.A. Rahe ("The Annihilation of the Sacrd Band at Chaeronea," American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 85 No. 1, Jan. 1981, p. 84-87) has concluded that "it seems unlikely that the Macedonian cavalry played a decisive role in the struggle" (p. 87), having noted (p. 85) that the idea that the Sacred Band was shattered by a mounted charge should have died with the comment by Plutarch that the bodies of the Theban elite spearmen lay buried opposite to the remains of the infantry weapons (sarissai heads) that had killed them. Similalry, R.E. Gaebel (Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World, Univ. Okla. Press, Norman, OK, 2002), a leading authority on the subject of mounted warfare in classical Greece, has gone over the evidence thoroughly and concluded that "it is most likely that Alexander was in command of the infantry on the left wing [i.e. the sarissa-bearing phalangites] and that the struggle was primarily one of infantry, with cavalry in some subordinate but unknown role" (p. 157). I came to a simillar conclusion after examining all the available data for my own reconstruction of Chaeronea (F.E. Ray, Greek and Macedonian Land Battles in the 4th Century B.C., McFarland, Jefferson, N.C., 2012) and have proposed that it is "probable that the riders and attached foot screens for both sides were confined to a sidebar duel across [east of] the Cephissus River" and that this "skirmish was likely inconclusive and kept the Macedonian horsemen from all but the latest stages of the main action, in which they did some clean-up and pursuit after the Greeks gave way" (p. 135). In truth, I have never seen evidence in any Greek engagement that I've examined from either the 5th or 4th centures BC where cavalry broke an intact spear line (or even attempted to do so) by means of a frontal charge. Horsemen seem to have played decisive roles against opposing phalanxes only through lateral envelopments, and even then generally only in conjunction with a simultaneous supporting attack along the oppositon's front by their own heavy infantry.

The foregong not withstanding, it is clear that Philip (and even more so his son Alexander) did indeed foster considerable advancements in the use of cavalry in Grecian warfare; it's just that this was not evidenced at Chaeronea. Still the reality of this seems to be that both Philip and Alexander led with whichever arm or combination of arms they deemed best suited for any given physical setting and against the specific type of opponent at hand. Thus, there were some battles like Chaeronea (for Philip) and Sagalassos (334/333 BC) for Alexander where they relied on their heavy infantry, others where their infantry phalanx and cavalry worked in tandom to decisive effect in more or less equal measures, and still others (against almost entirely mounted foes) where they carried the action primarily with their cavalry and attached light footmen. A Macedonian tendency to over-rely on mounted attacks does not appear to have actually surfaced until the Successor Wars got well underway after Alexander's death, only then to evolve over time into an even greater over-reliance on heavy infantry in the closing decades of the Hellenistic era.

 

[Sertorius1066]

I'm a game of thrones fan so like your username winter is coming. As you can tell from signature and my second articule I am a big spartan fan and have many books on the subject. I enjoy the warrior ethos of the Spartans. In all of Greece I feel the next city state of this mould was thebes and with there scared band being their elites they always interested me but as Agesilaos pointed out there is nothing modern written on them (therefore I will be buying your book!). There heroic last stand is something equally moving and tragic. Without Calvary no I don't believe thebes would have lost however I do believe the city state was in decline and there hegemony was brief. I look forward to reading more about them as my knowledge is limited on thebes. I have for years tried to get J Bucklers book the Theban Hegemony but can't find it for less than £100 and for some strange reason the wife won't let me spend that much!

 

[Fred Ray]

I too have searched out and will be eagerly ordering a copy of your book on the Sacred Band for my own library. I wonder why I hadn't been aware of it earlier! Anyway, that's a short-coming now to be quickly corrected. By the way, I suspect that you probably are already aware of the Sacred Band's predecessor unit "The Charioteers," which you maybe have covered in your book. This, as I vaguely recall (it was quite a while back when I wrote about it in my first book on 5th century Greek battles), was a 300-man elite unit of Theban hoplites in operation well prior to the creation of the Sacred Band in the 4th century. It's interesting that their title suggests a much older origin in an era dominated by elite horsemen, very much in parallel to the Hippeis at Sparta, who had also evolved into a picked band of spearmen by the 5th century BC.

 

[WinterIsComing]

I spent years researching the SBT in Greek and a little Latin, wrote my History thesis on it and turned it into a book. And now I'm shamelessly advertising it here.

375263 - The Sacred Band of Thebes - $19.95

It may not be the greatest book on the SBT, but it's the only one. - CH

Lol, that's/you're awesome. I'll buy it for sure.

 

[bodhi]

That's because much of the post-hellenic view on sexuality was imposed by the church. Sexuality was worshiped in the pagan world, and depending on your school of thought homosexuality, bi-sexuality and hetero-sexuality was encouraged, but all three lived side by side. The Church took a decided stance against all things Pagan, and so concepts such as freedom of sexuality, respect for women, all took a severe beating

In the early days there was no "the church" anyway which got it's shape and power we know today only in the early middle ages really.

Explain me how the Greeks and Romans respected women more than what is described in the new testament. The politics of "the church" towards women is more a continuation of Roman and Greek ideas than those described in the new testament and seeimingly lived by the early Christians.

The general Christian stance against ....- and bi-sexuality also does not come from being "anti-pagan" and actually is not targeted at ....- or bi-sexuality in particular. Insteat it comes from a sort of movement in early Christianity which was adverse to physical joy because it was assumed it got in the way of the focus on the soul and god - similar to and perhaps a continuation of Roman stoizism (?). From this idea the whole Christian sexual morality developed which actually only allows ... in marriage and with the purpose to make babies. Everything else is "wrong" (including ....- and bisexuality, masturbation and the on) - of course this collides heavily with human nature and is rather unrealistic.

 

[Davidius]

It may not be the greatest book on the SBT, but it's the only one.

If it's the only one then it must be the greatest.

There are, however, a few more.
The first two are historical fiction and the third one is a composite of Wiki and internet articles but they all include the history and exploits of the sacred band.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Sacred-Band-Thebes/dp/1466408863"]The Rise and the Fall of the Sacred Band of Thebes: G. A. Hauser: 9781466408869: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q90CUe3-L.@@AMEPARAM@@51Q90CUe3-L[/ame]
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Sacred-Band-Janet-Morris/dp/0988755009/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_5"]The Sacred Band: Janet Morris, Chris Morris: 9780988755000: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5150jNYY-8L.@@AMEPARAM@@5150jNYY-8L[/ame]

w.amazon.co.uk/Sacred-Thebes-Ronald-Jesse-Russell/dp/B007QW9MPO/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&qid=1373973339&sr=8-24&keywords=sacred+band+of+thebes

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

[agesilaos]

Since I seem unable to log in, I will reply to posts about the SBT here: I did mention the precursor to the SBT in my book, "
Diodorus, writing about the battle of Delion (424), says of the Boiotian army, “fighting in front of all [were] those called the charioteers (heniokhoi)and warriors (parabatai, literally “men who stand beside&#8221, three hundred chosen men.” This has the original Greek in my footnote, but it appears that Greek text does not show up here as Greek.
As for Charonea: I base my account more on Polyainos than on the rather uncritical Diodorus; if Alexander could, at Gaugamela, create a flank where there was no flank, his father could have done it at Chaeronea; Alexander may have even learned this tactic there.