Dyaus Pita, "The God" of Vedic Aryans ?

Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
Last edited:
Metaphysical aspects, or just physical aspects.
Depends on what period are we talking about. Ancient - Physical, later Metaphysical.

Tapas
Pokorny Etymon: 2. tap- 'to press down/together'
IE
North Germanic
Old Icelandic: þefja vb to stamp
þóf n thronging, pressing
Slavic
Russian: tópat', tópnut' vb to stamp (one's foot)
Hellenic
Greek: ταπεινός adj lowly, humble, downtrodden
Indic
Sanskrit: saṁ-tápati vb to oppress, torment, torture
sáṁ-tapyate vb to be oppressed, afflicted

Note: þ here is not p.
Todd, got to the page by getting the Wiki address from 'quote' with your post. The forum link system is not working properly. Will the Mods kindly check?
 
Joined Dec 2014
3,768 Posts | 280+
USA
Depends on what period are we talking about. Ancient - Physical, later Metaphysical.

Tapas
Pokorny Etymon: 2. tap- 'to press down/together'
IE
North Germanic
Old Icelandic: þefja vb to stamp
þóf n thronging, pressing
Slavic
Russian: tópat', tópnut' vb to stamp (one's foot)
Hellenic
Greek: ταπεινός adj lowly, humble, downtrodden
Indic
Sanskrit: saṁ-tápati vb to oppress, torment, torture
sáṁ-tapyate vb to be oppressed, afflicted

Note: þ here is not p.
Todd, got to the page by getting the Wiki address from 'quote' with your post. The forum link system is not working properly. Will the Mods kindly check?

Wrong. Ancient -> Metaphysical and Physical
Modern -> Same as above.

Have you read DIrghatamas' hymn "Ekam sadvipraa bahudA vidanti" in RV?
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
Last edited:
Book 1, later than the family books. Let me read the hymn carefully.
Problem to resolve - It also has reference to Arctic conditions.

imaṃ rathamadhi ye sapta tasthuḥ saptacakraṃ sapta vahantyaśvāḥ l
sapta svasāro abhi saṃ navante yatra gavāṃ nihitā sapta nāma ll

The seven who on the seven-wheeled car are mounted have horses, seven in tale, who draw them onward.
Seven Sisters utter songs of praise together, in whom the names of the seven Cows are treasured.
pañcapādaṃ pitaraṃ dvādaśākṛtiṃ diva āhuḥ pare ardhe purīṣiṇam l
atheme anya upare vicakṣaṇaṃ saptacakre ṣaḷara āhurarpitam ll

They call him in the farther half of heaven the Sire five-footed, of twelve forms, wealthy in watery store.
These others say that he, God with far-seeing eyes, is mounted on the lower seven-wheeled, six-spoked car.
 
Joined Dec 2014
3,768 Posts | 280+
USA
Book 1, later than the family books. Let me read the hymn carefully.
Problem to resolve - It also has reference to Arctic conditions.

imaṃ rathamadhi ye sapta tasthuḥ saptacakraṃ sapta vahantyaśvāḥ l
sapta svasāro abhi saṃ navante yatra gavāṃ nihitā sapta nāma ll

The seven who on the seven-wheeled car are mounted have horses, seven in tale, who draw them onward.
Seven Sisters utter songs of praise together, in whom the names of the seven Cows are treasured.
pañcapādaṃ pitaraṃ dvādaśākṛtiṃ diva āhuḥ pare ardhe purīṣiṇam l
atheme anya upare vicakṣaṇaṃ saptacakre ṣaḷara āhurarpitam ll

They call him in the farther half of heaven the Sire five-footed, of twelve forms, wealthy in watery store.
These others say that he, God with far-seeing eyes, is mounted on the lower seven-wheeled, six-spoked car.

There is zero proof of Arctic conditions in any mandala of Rig Veda 1 through 10. Mandala 1 is not the youngest either. You are wrong on both counts.
 
Joined Dec 2014
3,768 Posts | 280+
USA
There is zero proof of Arctic conditions in any mandala of Rig Veda 1 through 10. Mandala 1 is not the youngest either. You are wrong on both counts.

For the sake of Aupamanyav, who argues that the philosophy of Upanishads is a result of his "assumed" indigenous people (frankly I have yet to see any of his proofs), I have here the hymn from Rig Veda that quotes Brahman in the sense of a Brahma Jnani of the Upanishads. This is from RV 7-33-11:

utAsi maitrAvarunO vasishtOrvashyA brahmanmanasOdhi jAtah
drapsam skannam brahmaNA daivyEna vishwE dEvAh pushkarE tvAdadanta

O Vasishta, you are the son of Mitra and VaruNa, Brahman (here addressed to Vasishta, meaning that he is Brahma jnAni), you were born after the seminal effusion of Mitra-VaruNa because of Urvashi's will. Born thus, the Gods established you on PushkaraParna (an eternal lake, which is again symbolic), seeing you contain the celestial knowledge of DevAs.

Further, we have from the same mandala 7-33-10:

vidyutO jyOtih pari sanjihAnam mitrAvaruNA yadapashyatAm tvA
tattE janmOtaikam vasishtAgastyO yatvAvisha ajabhAra

O Vasishta, when MitrAvaruNa beheld you during the time that you shed your luminous form (to take birth in the gross world), when Agastya bore you from your former abode, then one of your births took place.

What you can clearly see here is the very same concept of "avatar" as we see in the current form of Hinduism, the same concept of cycle of births, etc..

I have many more hymns to quote, but this should be sufficient at this time to drive the point home.

Lastly, it is important to note that Vasishta is one of the oldest Rshis of Rig Veda.
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
Last edited:
You have selected RV 7.33 which was clearly written in India since it is about the Battle of Ten Kings. It is not an early RigVdic hymn. And the hymn was written by a descendant of Sage Vasishtha in a land where the Vasishthas were the Royal Priests (to Trtsus and King Sudasa). Naturally, it will sing the praises of their forebear, Sage Vasishtha, and attribute to him a divine birth (just like Christians attribute a divine birth to Jesus to make him larger than life). Though old, Vasishtha was not as old as Atharvan or Angirasa, the only rishis which Aryan called as 'our fathers'. Vaishtha and others became primal rishis only later and in the Purana period. Though, Vasishtha may have been my forebear too through Vyaghrapada and Upamanyu. :)

vidyuto jyotiḥ pari saṃjihānaṃ mitrāvaruṇā yadapaśyatāṃ tvā l
tat te janmotaikaṃ vasiṣṭhāghastyo yat tvā viśājabhāra ll
utāsi maitrāvaruṇo vasiṣṭhorvaśyā brahman manaso adhi jātaḥ l
drapsaṃ skannaṃ brahmaṇā daivyena viśvedevāḥ puṣkare tvādadanta ll

Griffith:
- A form of lustre springing from the lightning were you, when Varuṇa and Mitra saw you;
Till one and only birth was then, Vasiṣṭha, when from your stock Agastya brought you here.
- Born of their love for Urvasi, Vasiṣṭha you, priest, are son of Varuṇa and Mitra;
And as a fallen drop, in heavenly fervour, all the Gods laid you on a lotus-blossorn.

Your translation without explanations:
- O Vasishta, when MitrAvaruNa beheld you during the time that you shed your luminous form, when Agastya bore you from your former abode, then one of your births took place.
- O Vasishta, you are the son of Mitra and VaruNa, Brahman, you were born after the seminal effusion of Mitra-VaruNa because of Urvashi's will. Born thus, the Gods established you on PushkaraParna, seeing you contain the celestial knowledge of DevAs.

'Manaso adhi jatah': born of mind, then what was the need for seminal fluid. There was no seminal fluid in the Jesus tale. It was the breath.
 
Joined Dec 2014
3,768 Posts | 280+
USA
You have selected RV 7.33 which was clearly written in India since it is about the Battle of Ten Kings. It is not an early RigVdic hymn. And the hymn was written by a descendant of Sage Vasishtha in a land where the Vasishthas were the Royal Priests (to Trtsus and King Sudasa). Naturally, it will sing the praises of their forebear, Sage Vasishtha, and attribute to him a divine birth (just like Christians attribute a divine birth to Jesus to make him larger than life). Though old, Vasishtha was not as old as Atharvan or Angirasa, the only rishis which Aryan called as 'our fathers'. Vaishtha and others became primal rishis only later and in the Purana period. Though, Vasishtha may have been my forebear too through Vyaghrapada and Upamanyu. :)

vidyuto jyotiḥ pari saṃjihānaṃ mitrāvaruṇā yadapaśyatāṃ tvā l
tat te janmotaikaṃ vasiṣṭhāghastyo yat tvā viśājabhāra ll
utāsi maitrāvaruṇo vasiṣṭhorvaśyā brahman manaso adhi jātaḥ l
drapsaṃ skannaṃ brahmaṇā daivyena viśvedevāḥ puṣkare tvādadanta ll

Griffith:
- A form of lustre springing from the lightning were you, when Varuṇa and Mitra saw you;
Till one and only birth was then, Vasiṣṭha, when from your stock Agastya brought you here.
- Born of their love for Urvasi, Vasiṣṭha you, priest, are son of Varuṇa and Mitra;
And as a fallen drop, in heavenly fervour, all the Gods laid you on a lotus-blossorn.

Your translation without explanations:
- O Vasishta, when MitrAvaruNa beheld you during the time that you shed your luminous form, when Agastya bore you from your former abode, then one of your births took place.
- O Vasishta, you are the son of Mitra and VaruNa, Brahman, you were born after the seminal effusion of Mitra-VaruNa because of Urvashi's will. Born thus, the Gods established you on PushkaraParna, seeing you contain the celestial knowledge of DevAs.

'Manaso adhi jatah': born of mind, then what was the need for seminal fluid. There was no seminal fluid in the Jesus tale. It was the breath.

You are wrong. While Bhrgu and Angira are the oldest, Atri and Vasishta thereafter followed.

There is zero proof for your evidence that some hymns were written in India and some outside. I repeat - there is ZERO proof for such a position.

Seminal fluid of Mitra VaruNa is not cited to make a contradiction of "mind born". It is to use the common way of reproduction to narrate an otherwise metaphysical factor. Neither MitraVaruNa were any actual males, nor was Urvashi an actual female. The Vedic people were not dumbos.
 
Joined Oct 2015
1,528 Posts | 573+
India
Last edited:
Dear Chachaji,

We need to look outside the Rig Veda Samhita for an answer to your question.

Dyaus Pita (Sky father) was one of the Gods in Proto-Indo-European religion. The Greek god Zeus, the Roman god Jupiter, and the Illyrian god Dei-Pátrous all appear as the head gods of their respective pantheons. In Rigveda he is mentioned as Dyáus Pitā, but is not the main God.

The other Gods in Proto-Indo-European religion include

  • Heavenly Deities: Goddess Earth (Prithvi), Goddess Dawn (Usha), Sun (Surya), Moon (Soma?),
  • Twin Deities: Horse twins (Asvins), Manu, Yama,
  • Storm Deity: Parjanya,
  • Water Deity: Apam Napat,
  • Nature Deities: Pushan, Ribhus
  • Social Deities: Tvastr


Clearly Proto-Indo-European religion was polytheistic. Vedic Aryans is a descendant of that or has best preserved the the religious tradition of Proto-Indo-European, so it too was polytheistic from the beginning.

Rig Veda Samhita has suggestions that underlying all Gods & Goddesses is a single monotheistic God or principle, but no specific name given to this single God as far as I know. It was only later that the Vedic Aryans became to understand & believe single supreme God, and named him (or her) as the Brahman.

Regards

Rajeev

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_deities
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
Last edited:
Dvavah himself was a Vedic God, powerful, an Asura. How do you connect if someone is already in there?

भूरिं द्वे अचरन्ती चरन्तं पद्वन्तं गर्भमपदी दधाते l
नित्यं न सूनुं पित्रोरुपस्थे द्यावा रक्षतं पर्थिवी नो अभ्वात ll

bhūriṃ dve acarantī carantaṃ padvantaṃ gharbhamapadī dadhāte l
nityaṃ na sūnuṃ pitrorupasthe dyāvā rakṣataṃ pṛthivī no abhvāta ll

The Twain uphold, though motionless and footless, a widespread offspring having feet and moving.
Like your own son upon his parents’ bosom, protect us, Heaven and earth, from fearful danger.

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01185.htm
 
Joined Jun 2017
921 Posts | 412+
usa
Last edited:
Dear Chachaji,

We need to look outside the Rig Veda Samhita for an answer to your question.

Dyaus Pita (Sky father) was one of the Gods in Proto-Indo-European religion. The Greek god Zeus, the Roman god Jupiter, and the Illyrian god Dei-Pátrous all appear as the head gods of their respective pantheons. In Rigveda he is mentioned as Dyáus Pitā, but is not the main God.

The other Gods in Proto-Indo-European religion include

  • Heavenly Deities: Goddess Earth (Prithvi), Goddess Dawn (Usha), Sun (Surya), Moon (Soma?),
  • Twin Deities: Horse twins (Asvins), Manu, Yama,
  • Storm Deity: Parjanya,
  • Water Deity: Apam Napat,
  • Nature Deities: Pushan, Ribhus
  • Social Deities: Tvastr


Clearly Proto-Indo-European religion was polytheistic. Vedic Aryans is a descendant of that or has best preserved the the religious tradition of Proto-Indo-European, so it too was polytheistic from the beginning.

Rig Veda Samhita has suggestions that underlying all Gods & Goddesses is a single monotheistic God or principle, but no specific name given to this single God as far as I know. It was only later that the Vedic Aryans became to understand & believe single supreme God, and named him (or her) as the Brahman.

Regards

Rajeev

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_deities

The link you gave clearly says that the PIE religion is not attested but reconstrcuted. How can we consider something that is made up as the truth without a grain of evidence to that effect?

All the so called root words of PIE are made up.

What you call PIE gods make their first appearance only in Rig ved, which is clearly set in India (mandal 1-10) and not before. Zeus, Jupiter and the other greek, roman and other european gods appears 100s of years later.

What is This PIE religion?
 
Joined Oct 2015
1,528 Posts | 573+
India
The link you gave clearly says that the PIE religion is not attested but reconstrcuted. How can we consider something that is made up as the truth without a grain of evidence to that effect?

All the so called root words of PIE are made up.

What you call PIE gods make their first appearance only in Rig ved, which is clearly set in India (mandal 1-10) and not before. Zeus, Jupiter and the other greek, roman and other european gods appears 100s of years later.

What is This PIE religion?

Hi Hansolo,

There is difference between "made up" and "re-constructed". Re-construction has a basis in linguistics and comparative religion both of which are established fields in social science. In facts linguists have even found mathematical laws which apply to evolution of languages.

Even if we say that Rig Vedic gods are the most ancient, still it was a polytheistic religion and Dyaus Pita was not the supreme God.

Regards

Rajeev
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
Last edited:
You are wrong. While Bhrgu and Angira are the oldest, Atri and Vasishta thereafter followed.
You know Aatreya, I do not make an assertion if I do not have the proof. And Lokmanya Tilak Maharaj is always there with me to help. Lokmanya always mentions his sources from Vedas, Brahmanas or Aranyakas.

"The RigVeda mentions a number of ancient sacrificers styled “our fathers” (II, 33, 13; VI, 22, 2), who instituted the sacrifice in ancient times and laid down, for the guidance of man, the path which he should, in future, follow. Thus the sacrifice offered by Manu, is taken as the type and other sacrifices are compared with it in I, 76, 5.

But Manu was not alone to offer this ancient sacrifice to the gods. In X, 63, 7, he is said to have made the first offerings to the gods along with the seven Hotṛis; while Angiras and Yayâti are mentioned with him as ancient sacrificers in I, 31, 17, Bhṛigu and Angiras in VIII, 43, 13, Atharvan and Dadhyañch in I, 80, 16 and Dadhyañch, Angiras, Atri and Kanva in I, 139, 9.

Atharvan by his sacrifices is elsewhere described, as having first extended the paths, whereupon the sun was born (I, 83, 5), and the Atharvans, in the plural, are styled “our fathers” (nah pitarah) along with Angirases, Navagvas and Bhṛgus in X, 14, 6. In II, 34, 12, Dashagvas are said to have been the first to offer a sacrifice; while in X, 92, 10 Atharvan is spoken of, as having established order by sacrifices, when the Bhṛigus showed themselves as gods by their skill.

Philologically the name of Atharvan appears as Athravan, meaning a fire-priest, in the Avesta, and the word Angiras is said to be etymologically connected with the Greek Aggilos, a “messenger” and the Persian Angara “a mounted courier.” In the Aitareya Brâhmana (III, 34) Angirases are said to be the same as Angârâh, “burning coals or fire,” (Cf. RigVeda X. 62, 5).

Whether we accept these etymologies as absolutely correct or not, the resemblance between the different words sufficiently warrants the assumption that Atharvan and Angiras must have been the ancient sacrificers of the whole Aryan race and not merely of the Vedic people. Therefore, even though Manu, Atharvan, Angiras be not the names of particular individuals, still there can be little doubt that they represented families of priests* who conducted, if not originated the sacrifices in primeval times, that is, before the Aryan separation**, and who, for this reason, seem to have attained almost divine character in the eyes of the poets of the RigVeda."

* In the same way as I may be a Vasishtha.
** According to Tilak the separation (between the West going Aryans and the rest) occurred around 3,500 BC.
 
Joined Jun 2017
921 Posts | 412+
usa
Hi Hansolo,

There is difference between "made up" and "re-constructed". Re-construction has a basis in linguistics and comparative religion both of which are established fields in social science. In facts linguists have even found mathematical laws which apply to evolution of languages.

Even if we say that Rig Vedic gods are the most ancient, still it was a polytheistic religion and Dyaus Pita was not the supreme God.

Regards

Rajeev


I do not have a problem with linguistics but the problem arises when there is no way of verifying PIE. no matter what fancy word we use PIE language and religion is "made up" as we have absolutely no way of proving it. The strange thing is that now people quote PIE language and PIE religion as if these were real in the past.

ANother problem I have with PIE is that these made up words have made up root words. These made up root words are applied to words in Sanskrit which already have root words.

Very good example is the word "Ratha" of Sanskrit which is said to have originated from the made up PIE word "Rothos" which means "wheel".

Now in sanskrit we already have "chakra" for wheel. Why would" Ratha" which means car/wagon come from "rothos" instead of "chakra"? Do you see the fallacy in that? Especially since "Ratha" already has a root word "ra" which means "go"


The trend I have seen on AIT/AMT thread and anything related to Rigveda is that most of us blindly follow what ever has been fed to us for decades without applying our own knowledge or doing a just a little research. It is not that difficult to discover, in this age of instant access, that a lot of these old assumptions/theories/reconstructions have big loopholes and need to be reevaluated and looked at from another angle.

You are right Dyaus Pita is not the supreme god in Rigveda. There are certain hymns that do imply a higher power that has been made more concrete as Brahman in the Upanishads.
 
Joined Dec 2014
3,768 Posts | 280+
USA
You know Aatreya, I do not make an assertion if I do not have the proof. And Lokmanya Tilak Maharaj is always there with me to help. Lokmanya always mentions his sources from Vedas, Brahmanas or Aranyakas.

"The RigVeda mentions a number of ancient sacrificers styled “our fathers” (II, 33, 13; VI, 22, 2), who instituted the sacrifice in ancient times and laid down, for the guidance of man, the path which he should, in future, follow. Thus the sacrifice offered by Manu, is taken as the type and other sacrifices are compared with it in I, 76, 5.

But Manu was not alone to offer this ancient sacrifice to the gods. In X, 63, 7, he is said to have made the first offerings to the gods along with the seven Hotṛis; while Angiras and Yayâti are mentioned with him as ancient sacrificers in I, 31, 17, Bhṛigu and Angiras in VIII, 43, 13, Atharvan and Dadhyañch in I, 80, 16 and Dadhyañch, Angiras, Atri and Kanva in I, 139, 9.

Atharvan by his sacrifices is elsewhere described, as having first extended the paths, whereupon the sun was born (I, 83, 5), and the Atharvans, in the plural, are styled “our fathers” (nah pitarah) along with Angirases, Navagvas and Bhṛgus in X, 14, 6. In II, 34, 12, Dashagvas are said to have been the first to offer a sacrifice; while in X, 92, 10 Atharvan is spoken of, as having established order by sacrifices, when the Bhṛigus showed themselves as gods by their skill.

Philologically the name of Atharvan appears as Athravan, meaning a fire-priest, in the Avesta, and the word Angiras is said to be etymologically connected with the Greek Aggilos, a “messenger” and the Persian Angara “a mounted courier.” In the Aitareya Brâhmana (III, 34) Angirases are said to be the same as Angârâh, “burning coals or fire,” (Cf. RigVeda X. 62, 5).

Whether we accept these etymologies as absolutely correct or not, the resemblance between the different words sufficiently warrants the assumption that Atharvan and Angiras must have been the ancient sacrificers of the whole Aryan race and not merely of the Vedic people. Therefore, even though Manu, Atharvan, Angiras be not the names of particular individuals, still there can be little doubt that they represented families of priests* who conducted, if not originated the sacrifices in primeval times, that is, before the Aryan separation**, and who, for this reason, seem to have attained almost divine character in the eyes of the poets of the RigVeda."

* In the same way as I may be a Vasishtha.
** According to Tilak the separation (between the West going Aryans and the rest) occurred around 3,500 BC.

I am quoting the likes of VAsistha, etc... who were the seers of Veda. What do I care about your Tilak Maharaj or whoever? Tilak is a minion here.
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
To say that about Lokmanya Tilak is blasphemy. He was one of our greatest of greats in modern times.

"स्वराज्य हा माझा जन्मसिद्ध हक्क आहे आणि तो मी मिळवणारच" ("Swarajya is my birthright and I shall have it!")

Vasishtha is not mentioned as "our fathers", otherwise Tilak would have quoted it.
 

Trending History Discussions

Top