The Fact That Sociology is NOT a Science

Joined Aug 2018
61 Posts | 11+
Anatolia
In my humble opinion, a great task like understanding or commenting on the human society or species or whatever they do, belongs to the field of medicine. Humans are actual, material entities and behaviours are not separate from brain, it is a subject for positive sciences unless we believe in magic and feelings. It takes deep understanding on the studies of neurons, genes, instincts, evolution, our anatomy, our species, psychiatry, hormones and other chemicals which govern us.
Questionnaires are another maculate way they assume their 'data': the answers they collect are nothing more than people's current state of mind, far from being a reliable source. Neither you nor they cannot know if they were honest with the answers, an hour later you might've received a totally different answer depending on their chemical affairs.
No body can check the answers. No proofs, no science.
Some sociologists are actually studying political science and international relations whereas some study social history under the name sociology, such studies are totally reasonable but apples to apples.
To me it looks like sociologists are part-time questionnaire workers acting like they can have any say on the medical topics.
 
Joined Dec 2019
1,227 Posts | 557+
Fryslân, Netherlands
In my humble opinion, a great task like understanding or commenting on the human society or species or whatever they do, belongs to the field of medicine. Humans are actual, material entities and behaviours are not separate from brain, it is a subject for positive sciences unless we believe in magic and feelings. It takes deep understanding on the studies of neurons, genes, instincts, evolution, our anatomy, our species, psychiatry, hormones and other chemicals which govern us.
Questionnaires are another maculate way they assume their 'data': the answers they collect are nothing more than people's current state of mind, far from being a reliable source. Neither you nor they cannot know if they were honest with the answers, an hour later you might've received a totally different answer depending on their chemical affairs.
No body can check the answers. No proofs, no science.
Some sociologists are actually studying political science and international relations whereas some study social history under the name sociology, such studies are totally reasonable but apples to apples.
To me it looks like sociologists are part-time questionnaire workers acting like they can have any say on the medical topics.
the processes of chemistry are determined by the processes from physics. Does this mean that chemistry is not a science? Just because the processes in the brain are chemical in nature doesn’t mean their manifestations can’t be studied in a meaningful way. How would people who studied medicine have authority in the field of (quantum) physics?
The reason large amounts of data is collected is so it is representative of the entire population. If one has seen one molecule how can one be sure the same laws apply to another? Does one have to study every molecule as well as their inner workings down to the level below the Planck Length (which is impossible) to come to a conclusion about how they work? No. One collects so much data that it is considered convincing enough to constitute proof but it doesn’t proof that all molecules everywhere work in the same way nor that molecules actually exist. According to Quantum Field Theory (as I understand it) particles don’t actually exist. Does this render all physics as we knew it unscientific? No, just possibly outdated, there is another level to be studied just like studying the physical processes in the brain is just taking a look at a deeper level as compared to sociology which does not automatically make sociology unscientific.
If the amount of scrutiny you applied to sociology is applied to the other sciences we would very quickly run out of science.
 
Joined Nov 2016
5,776 Posts | 2,668+
Germany
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In my humble opinion, a great task like understanding or commenting on the human society or species or whatever they do, belongs to the field of medicine. Humans are actual, material entities and behaviours are not separate from brain, it is a subject for positive sciences unless we believe in magic and feelings. It takes deep understanding on the studies of neurons, genes, instincts, evolution, our anatomy, our species, psychiatry, hormones and other chemicals which govern us

Dorgedrogt has already shown how one-sided your approach is. I add to his arguments the phenomenon of quantum entanglement: quanta can communicate with each other over huge distances without science being able to explain it.

From a mind-philosophical point of view, I can add that your "medicine" cannot explain many things that we attribute to the sphere of consciousness, for example, consciousness itself or the feelings, fantasies and the perception of color and sound.

Physically, the color Red, to give an example, is to be described in this way: Light wavelength 625-740 nm and frequency 405-480 THz. The sensations of such waves on the retina are processed in the visual cortex, which is located in the occipital lobe of the brain. Can we even in the slightest measure deduce from those data the optical quality of the color Red? No. Because the color Red is a mental sensation that cannot be inferred in any way from the physical and chemical data that characterize the corresponding light waves and the biological processes during light perception. Mind-philosophically such mental sensations are called "qualia". Other examples are sounds, feelings, pains and fantasies. There are biological correlates for all these, but they are not in any way logically and necessarily related to the mental appearance of the qualia. Moreover, nothing explains why the above-mentioned wavelength and frequency appear to us optically as red instead of blue or green.

This puts the scientific scope of the "medicine" you so much glorify into a very relative perspective, because it cannot even begin to explain such simple things as why certain light waves appear mentally in a certain way and not differently. Even more, it cannot explain at all how the transition from the physical and chemical sphere to the mental sphere occurs. These are completely different dimensions, between which there is no recognisable gradual transition.

Efforts of materialists like you to explain everything by material processes (while or just because their understanding of matter often is rather limited), so they quickly reach their limits. And they're even proud of that limitedness...
 
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Joined Jul 2015
16,914 Posts | 9,355+
Netherlands
the processes of chemistry are determined by the processes from physics. Does this mean that chemistry is not a science? Just because the processes in the brain are chemical in nature doesn’t mean their manifestations can’t be studied in a meaningful way. How would people who studied medicine have authority in the field of (quantum) physics?
The reason large amounts of data is collected is so it is representative of the entire population. If one has seen one molecule how can one be sure the same laws apply to another? Does one have to study every molecule as well as their inner workings down to the level below the Planck Length (which is impossible) to come to a conclusion about how they work? No. One collects so much data that it is considered convincing enough to constitute proof but it doesn’t proof that all molecules everywhere work in the same way nor that molecules actually exist. According to Quantum Field Theory (as I understand it) particles don’t actually exist. Does this render all physics as we knew it unscientific? No, just possibly outdated, there is another level to be studied just like studying the physical processes in the brain is just taking a look at a deeper level as compared to sociology which does not automatically make sociology unscientific.
If the amount of scrutiny you applied to sociology is applied to the other sciences we would very quickly run out of science.
Great, show me one result from the entire field of sociology that was replicated.
 
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Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Not eveything of value in the field of knowledge and study is science.

Yup sosiclaoloy is NOT a science. Does not mean it;s not a valuable area of study and that it doe snot benefit from science like methods,
 
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Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Yep

It also doesn't mean it is a valuable area of study ;)

Value is value judgement.

Are you interested in how humans interact? how power structures are built? I find it interesting.

Liek am areas of study there is debgree of useless taff. But foe those without some knowledge judging what is taff from the outside is deeply problematic judgement.

I found socialiogoly a useful and interesting arera of study I may study it next year at university. Depending what is offered, I read some of the texts and see if they are interesting.
I am heavily interested in modelling society for computer game purposes.
Some sociological books have useful ways of looking at things that I find useful as way of approaching these things.
 
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Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Is history a science?

No. None of the "soclai sciences" are science. Neither is economics.

Juts beause osmething is not science does not make it worthless. Science has it uses but it's not the only thing of value.

But all areas of study can benefit from some science like methods and rigor.
 
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Joined Jul 2015
16,914 Posts | 9,355+
Netherlands
Value is value judgement.

Are you interested in how humans interact? how power structures are built? I find it interesting.

Liek am areas of study there is debgree of useless taff. But foe those without some knowledge judging what is taff from the outside is deeply problematic judgement.

I found socialiogoly a useful and interesting arera of study I may study it next year at university. Depending what is offered, I read some of the texts and see if they are interesting.
I am heavily interested in modelling society for computer game purposes.
Some sociological books have useful ways of looking at things that I find useful as way of approaching these things.
Just keep away from the agenda departments. Unfortunately that is getting tougher to do.
 
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Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Just keep away from the agenda departments. Unfortunately that is getting tougher to do.

Well I started an Arts degree this year, manly because (a) I've always wanted to (b) I wanted to be more systemic and rigorous in my approahc to history (c) i wanted to learn to write and structure agruments (d) I like having access to more libraries and journals.

There only one class were there is a touch of the "social justice" agenda. We did start that subject with 3 weeks on classical free market economics. (Milton Freedmen was the required reading week 1)
Other three subjects not a whim of politically correct , justice-warrorism.

But everybody has agenda. Human interaction always has some sort of political undertone, All historians are carrying some sort of baises,

I'm sick of Homer.

But we're on to other stuff now.

I was planning on 'trolling' the Marxists on campus, but the lock down happened. I'm curious about they methods, beliefs, structures, compared to the ones I grew up with.
 
Joined Nov 2016
5,776 Posts | 2,668+
Germany
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Great, show me one result from the entire field of sociology that was replicated.

Sociology is not a science in which replications are of primary importance. First, successful replication would not be proof of the quality of the replicated study. Secondly, because of the complexity of the contexts, studies cannot really be repeated one-to-one, the circumstances necessarily always differ from one another. Moreover, so many individual decisions have to be made in the course of operationalization that the sum total of the differences between the studies can turn out to be significant. The effort to reproduce a first study in detail is simply disproportionately large. In addition, a study that is repeated by another team will necessarily differ in details due to the individual characteristics of the members, because the researchers operate and interpret in different ways.

But this does not mean that sociology is unscientific, but that it functions according to different criteria than the natural sciences. There are various basic sociological models, the best known, besides Marxism, being the theory of action (Parsons), the system theory (Luhmann) and the theory of communication (Habermas). These models are different tools for the analysis of societies. Depending on the point of view, different conclusions can be drawn for the implementation of theory in political practice. For this is the purpose of sociological models: to provide an orientation for political practice.
 
Joined Dec 2019
1,227 Posts | 557+
Fryslân, Netherlands
Great, show me one result from the entire field of sociology that was replicated.
I haven’t read all that many sociological works yet (at most 20) but like with psychology you recreate conditions of interaction. The difference between the reproductivity of sociology and for example physics is that when studying the common interactions one can take for example a data set with 100.000 such interactions and extract from them what the underlying laws are, in physics one repeats a test a couple times, The results are the same and so one concludes that is the case everywhere, even for dark matter and anti-matter perhaps. When one studies what this matter does in the specific constellation “human” it is called sociology. All science is the study of reality, just at a different level. So in short: a service level analysis points in the direction of sociology being a science while at a fundamental level it is also a science.
the idea that it is not is generally built on the assumption that humans are so unique that it is impossible to scientifically study them. This is wrong. Humans act according to simple instincts and interests, sure humans are unique but some minor differences won’t make a difference when one is studying one big common principal, or trying to find it, which is what sociology is. Therefore sociology is, by it’s very definition, a science, otherwise one can’t really speak of sociology. Great sociologists have predicted many trends, knowing their outcome before it came to be, the accuracy of the claims of these sociologists in their particular field is further evidence that human interaction conforms to these general laws, determined by the very existence of instincts, interests and evolution. The purpose of sociology is not to study individual humans and find the laws to which the workings of the human mind adhere, psychologists an neurologists doe that, the purpose of sociology is to find out what happens in interactions of large groups of people. With the world being divided into states with different, on occasion very long, histories, there are plenty of isolated instances of laws manifesting themselves aka a certain sociologically studyable event occurring. To confirm microscopic particles work the way we think we do we would have to observe all of them at every moment of existence and document all their properties, not only could one argue, as some philosophers have done, that this still wouldn’t be enough proof but there are also natural laws against this occurring even in a smaller area, one can‘t measure all the properties of matter without at the very least significantly changing those properties through that interaction.
The French used to keep weights which weighed exactly one kilogram. When, after years of storage in vacuums, they were weighed they weighed different amounts. Both those which had been in the same vacuum as well as those which had been in different ones all weighed different amounts. Even today our exact scientific units may somewhat vary depending on the situation, though they are now based on things that are actually constant instead of things that can change, our interaction with constants, measurement of them, can change and with them the units we use for measuring things. This is just one of the reasons why pur knowledge of physics approaches reality but can never match it exactly. Than there is the aforementioned impossibility of exactly measuring everything and a bunch of things which are not possible to measure. There’s Banach-Tarksi. There’s also the workings of electrons and a bunch of other weird stuff which physics is not expected to ever be able to explain (I think a physicist once told me that it was impossible to exactly explain how electrons work by the very nature of our conception of physics).
from all this the conclusion can be reached that A:, sociological results are as reproducible as those of other sciences
B: If held up to the same level of scrutiny as sociology physics is not a science either
and C: that all this studying of reality is all, just that, studying reality at one level or another and as such their nature is the same.
One can look up conclusion from the field of sociology, it should be reproducible, otherwise it is pseudo-sociology in the same way that unreproducible information from physics is not actually physics but pseudo-physics.
 
Joined Jun 2012
4,341 Posts | 219+
Vilnius, Lithuania
Efforts of materialists like you to explain everything by material processes (while or just because their understanding of matter often is rather limited), so they quickly reach their limits. And they're even proud of that limitedness...
One of the greatest scientific minds of XIX century, Hermann von Helmholtz ( he also contributed to color vision research ) said : "Metaphysical conclusion is either a false conclusion or a concealed experimental conclusion".
 
Joined Nov 2016
5,776 Posts | 2,668+
Germany
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One of the greatest scientific minds of XIX century, Hermann von Helmholtz ( he also contributed to color vision research ) said :"Metaphysical conclusion is either a false conclusion or a concealed experimental conclusion"

A completely contextless quotation is not an argument. Against what, anyway? Haven't I proven argumentatively that qualia do not belong to the same sphere as physical or biological processes? Where would a continuous or even only gradual transition between a color quality such as red and the corresponding frequencies and wavelengths be found? We can only establish their dualism: Frequency/wavelengh vs. visual impression (Quale). These are two completely different spheres, the physical and the mental.

So if you have an objection, please be specific about the arguments mentioned and do not only give a quote picked up somewhere.

By the way, Helmholtz did not deny the existence of qualia, but he assigned it to the physical, the "nervous system". This shows a lack of understanding of the qualia problem.
 
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
“The Fact That Sociology is NOT a Science”

The thread title is confusing facts with opinions. And that is factual.

If Sociology is or is not a Science depends on the definitions of both, so in either cases we are presented with opinions, not facts.
 

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