Indo european cosmology - order and chaos

[Alaskansandman]

I have been learning a lot of stories to be sure. There is about 100 generations of them on the run or fighting some war or getting captured or murdered, even up to my generation. Someone wont leave us alone.

Well in terms of what Tacitus says and what the Norse say, mixed with etymology, ive made these connections.

Mannus, father of the Ingaevones, Irminones, and Istaeones must be Njord.
Mannus means man and Njord is cognate to Andros in Greek and Nero in Latin and both mean man.

Tuisto the father of Mannus is Ymir, jord/yemo. Who mates with Thridi (trito) Odin-Tyr (a term used in the Eddas).

This would give us yemo and trito mating to produce Manu. Which would match Greek with Poseidon mating with Tritogeneia to produce Minyas, founder of the Boeotians.

This would give a linguistic shift from Jord, to Njord, to Jormun.

Further, Njord as man having a sea connection and fathering three founders (presumably after the death and subsequent flood from death of Ymir) would match a Noah type figure or Deucalion in Greek. Meaning Njord was likely a mariner from near the Black Sea (danube river, don river, dnieper river> Danu/dehnu water goddess)

If Freyr is his son and so is Irmin, then Istae may likely be Freyrs twin, Freya.

Ingve Freyr connects to the Ingaevones, with many having elf names like Aelfraed, Aelfwine, Aelfstan, Aelfgar, Alfflaed, etc), as Ingve Freyr is king of the Alfar.

Irminones connect to the Goths / Gautaz a word for Odin.
Further Irmin in Norse is Jormun/gandr. Suggesting a tie between Jormun, Thor, and Jormungandr.

Suggesting this branch was the Aesir who fought Jormungandr on the sea journey after flood.

Leaving us the Istae and Freya, Queen of the Vanir, linking to the Franks.

Potentially giving us our 3 members of the Aesir-Vanir war, suggesting a hostage transfer between the cultures after the war which parralels your Trojan War. With death of Baldr by Loki matching death of Balor by Lugh in Irish and Achilles by Alexandros (Njord?).

 

[Alaskansandman]

This would suggest that Njord and Loki are connected through Man/Mani(moon). Loki coming from Lewk in pie, same as Lugh and Luna the moon goddess. Moon and man being related likely through Manu.

Njord kills someone later associated with Baldr, the sun god. Who that was in the time of Tacitus is hard to say. Norse Sol and Mani should relate though with the Dawn (Freya) being the third.

 

[Alaskansandman]

This would also suggest that the Alfheim in Sweden was not originally held by the Irminones branch (Aesir) but rather the Ingaevones branch (Alfar). That were conquered when Odin went North as Snori mentions Asgards being by Sea of Azov.

At least thats how the information reads to me.

The Jutes likely became the Danes who held the Alfheim across the waters from the Jutland.
Ragnar being either Danish or Swedish, generally held to be Danish tho.

 

[Alaskansandman]

My problem with the Trojan War is the location.

Maybe it was really in Anatolia, maybe it was closer to Sea of Azov?

Considering the dispersal of the tale potentially predating the Trojan War as the Mycenaeans werent likely a people yet when the true war happened, any more than the Hindu.

Or maybe it was at Troy but the extant of the conflict was greater. Though one would expect more mention of it in historical text then, beyond myths.
Its status as myth speaks to its true history in my opinion. So old that all that remains are scattered myths to be sleuthed through.

 

[Nivelon]

My problem with the Trojan War is the location.

Maybe it was really in Anatolia, maybe it was closer to Sea of Azov?

Considering the dispersal of the tale potentially predating the Trojan War as the Mycenaeans werent likely a people yet when the true war happened, any more than the Hindu.

Or maybe it was at Troy but the extant of the conflict was greater. Though one would expect more mention of it in historical text then, beyond myths.
Its status as myth speaks to its true history in my opinion. So old that all that remains are scattered myths to be sleuthed through.

It could be the author combines several generations into one figure or event. In my reconstructed Trojan lineage, Priam is a high king of Troy(Anatolia), his son Helenus survives to become a king in Epirus (Albania), and his son Cestrinus becomes king of Cimmerians (Sea of Azov). 1500 years later, their descendant Theodimir(Odin, Istio) is a king of some Goths (Sweden, Irmino) who leads his people to join Attila (Etzel) a Hun (Panonia, Inguo).

The point being, in the mythology the authors may combine all the deeds and history of a peoples into one man taking one action. When I liken Istio to Chittim and Inguo to Magog, Chittim and Magog as men or as a people existed probably 2000 years before Priam, and we use Istio, Ermino, and Inguo not as specific personages, but as classifications of ancestry or ethnicity. So I doubt Manu is the "father" or the Man of three sons literally, only figuratively to set the stage for the story. The problem with a biblical Table of Nations is I think those names have been misgendered in translation, and some specific men and women are refered to by more than one name. So in the 18th and 19th and 20th Centuries people have gotten themselves in trouble with the thinking "Noah is a man, he has three sons, Japheth Shem and Ham, and we all come from Japheth and hate everyone else." And then say "Noah is Manu and has three sons, Japheth is Manu and has three sons, etc.," And now in the 21st Century, everyone can look at all the beliefs and see that Hebrew authors and PIE authors are putting these people in the same places at the same times. It is similar to the wide held belief that both Troy and Minoans never existed, until in the 20th Century some guys dug them up and found them. So you have people who are invested in some of the lies about early stories recorded in the bible, others invested in lies about Troy denial, and it is very hard to reconcile our mythlogical stories and historical stories. But even that cannot hide that both stories are talking about the same people and same events.

What I like about your approach is that you are looking for a way to make the story make sense, whereas other people look for a way to dispute a story exists. My clue for you is that all of these stories are written from the perspective of a people who believe in male supremacy. Whereas the cultures and peoples of Istio prefered matriarchal societies. So when you look at each story, you need to look at the author, determine which society he came from, when he wrote the story, and if he had a vested interest in one narrative or the other.

"Scholars have linked Tacitus's description of ceremonial wagons found from around Tacitus's time up until the Viking Age, particularly the Germanic Iron Age Dejbjerg wagon in Denmark and the Viking Age Oseberg ship burial wagon in Norway. The goddess's name Nerthus (from Proto-Germanic *Nerþuz) is the early Germanic etymological precursor to the Old Norse deity name Njörðr, a male deity who is comparably associated with wagons and water in Norse mythology. Together with his children Freyja and Freyr, the three form the Vanir, a family of deities. The Old Norse record contains three narratives featuring ritual wagon processions that scholars have compared to Tacitus's description of Nerthus's wagon procession, one of which (and potentially all of them) focus on Njörðr's son Freyr."

from Nerthus - Wikipedia

 

[Alaskansandman]

It could be the author combines several generations into one figure or event. In my reconstructed Trojan lineage, Priam is a high king of Troy(Anatolia), his son Helenus survives to become a king in Epirus (Albania), and his son Cestrinus becomes king of Cimmerians (Sea of Azov). 1500 years later, their descendant Theodimir(Odin, Istio) is a king of some Goths (Sweden, Irmino) who leads his people to join Attila (Etzel) a Hun (Panonia, Inguo).

The point being, in the mythology the authors may combine all the deeds and history of a peoples into one man taking one action. When I liken Istio to Chittim and Inguo to Magog, Chittim and Magog as men or as a people existed probably 2000 years before Priam, and we use Istio, Ermino, and Inguo not as specific personages, but as classifications of ancestry or ethnicity. So I doubt Manu is the "father" or the Man of three sons literally, only figuratively to set the stage for the story. The problem with a biblical Table of Nations is I think those names have been misgendered in translation, and some specific men and women are refered to by more than one name. So in the 18th and 19th and 20th Centuries people have gotten themselves in trouble with the thinking "Noah is a man, he has three sons, Japheth Shem and Ham, and we all come from Japheth and hate everyone else." And then say "Noah is Manu and has three sons, Japheth is Manu and has three sons, etc.," And now in the 21st Century, everyone can look at all the beliefs and see that Hebrew authors and PIE authors are putting these people in the same places at the same times. It is similar to the wide held belief that both Troy and Minoans never existed, until in the 20th Century some guys dug them up and found them. So you have people who are invested in some of the lies about early stories recorded in the bible, others invested in lies about Troy denial, and it is very hard to reconcile our mythlogical stories and historical stories. But even that cannot hide that both stories are talking about the same people and same events.

What I like about your approach is that you are looking for a way to make the story make sense, whereas other people look for a way to dispute a story exists. My clue for you is that all of these stories are written from the perspective of a people who believe in male supremacy. Whereas the cultures and peoples of Istio prefered matriarchal societies. So when you look at each story, you need to look at the author, determine which society he came from, when he wrote the story, and if he had a vested interest in one narrative or the other.

"Scholars have linked Tacitus's description of ceremonial wagons found from around Tacitus's time up until the Viking Age, particularly the Germanic Iron Age Dejbjerg wagon in Denmark and the Viking Age Oseberg ship burial wagon in Norway. The goddess's name Nerthus (from Proto-Germanic *Nerþuz) is the early Germanic etymological precursor to the Old Norse deity name Njörðr, a male deity who is comparably associated with wagons and water in Norse mythology. Together with his children Freyja and Freyr, the three form the Vanir, a family of deities. The Old Norse record contains three narratives featuring ritual wagon processions that scholars have compared to Tacitus's description of Nerthus's wagon procession, one of which (and potentially all of them) focus on Njörðr's son Freyr."

from Nerthus - Wikipedia

Its certainly tough when youre working a unique theory (ive got my own), but ive found patience and persistance can pay off.

Ive suspected a link between Valland and Valkyries and Vahalla but faced opposition on the etymology. Just recently found the link that bridges them (falcons/birds> Roman Standard=Latin lands>carrion+battle field = the dead.).
Brunhilda, queen of the Merovingians of Waelland (the waelings/volsung) who was herself, a Valkyrie/ waelcyrge. She chose who went to battle to die. She was in Roman-Gaul, called Valland in Norse.
The Valir were the Romans and or Roman Gauls.
All of Valland/waelland would thus corrispond to the Mediterranean "Middle Earth". Making the lands of the Ingaevones, the Elf Lands of Freyr.

Not elves in the true fantasy way though, and not even likely the elves themselves. Merely men descended of Elves. Like Niphilhim in the bible.

Waelland respresenting the worship of Earendel/Aurvandil (See Christ 1 poem in Old English)
Eala Earendel, Engla Beorhtast, offer middangeard monnum sended.
"Hail Earendel, brightest of the Angels sent the to men of middle earth."

Versus those that followed Odin and the Aesir (Which may have centered around Gothic authority out of Gotaland/Gotland. Who were the Irminones.) Iminsul may have been a sign of authority attacked by Charlemagne, and revenged by Ragnar and his sons.

Edit- consider etymological relationship between Irmin-sul, Irminones,and Jormunrekkr "king Jormun", along with that of Jormun-gandr. "Jormun staff" compare Gandalf = staff elf.

 

[Alaskansandman]

The above theory pertains to 4-800Ad and does not represent the original mythology but its later development within the Germanic stratum.

 

[Nivelon]

The Gaels spell Irminones with an E, Erimon or Heremon, and I spell it Ermino. It all means the same thing, except the letter "i" should only be used for Istio, if you want to be completely correct. But the German writers put the '"i" on all three of them, which I think is confusing. Typically to denote a son of Inguo, you will use the vowels "a" or "u", sometimes "au" "eu" "ou", rarely "iu" or "ui" because that gets confusing. With Ermino, you want to stick to "e" "a" sometimes "o", and then with Istio it is always "i" or "o", rarely "a". But I still use the "i" for Inguo, to denote gender even though it is incorrect in meaning. Unguo or Hun is more concise, I feel. We used to say Saracen, but that took on a different meaning. Alan or Avar can mean the same thing. If you notice how, as far as the original people associated, the names of Britons, Romans, Franks, Sicambri, Alemani, Trojan, Cimmerian, Minoan, Cimbri, etc, there is never a "u", especially in the first syllable. We used an "a" for Franks because it was inclusive of Thurgini and Saxons originally, and Gauls later. Rarely we will use the "y" in the first syllable, like with Cyclades, Cyrus, Tyre, Troy, Tyrrhenian, the "god" Tyr, or my name, Tyrrell, which used to be Tirel. You will use a "u" in Tuscany, because the Etruscans came in an early wave of Inguo, like the Tuatha de Dannan, or Tuan. They tend to use an "a" over the "u" but I prefer the "u". "a" literally means, "anyone", whereas the other vowels are more specific. The "i" is the only one specifically male, "i" is used for the child of Istio, and "u" is used for the child of Inguo. You do not, or would not, use them for Ermino because you do not always know who the father is, so we use an "e" or "a", or if they do some notable deed an "o". The "e" used to be reserved for a person born wise or born noble, so when you see "ae" it means, anyone led by wisdom, and "ea" means the oppostite. So the Gaels are led by wise people, the Geats let their wise people be led by anyone. Gauls are led by Inguo. I am reading the vowels backwards because we used to read left to right, and if you know what each letter means, you still can. Celts are the leaders of the wise people we fought over, Goths are the ones who won the fight. Huns are the fathers of Inguo, Avars are all the men enslaved by the rulers. Tuatha are all the fighters who fought the fighters of Inguo, Tuan is all the men who fought Inguo. Etruscans. This is how they get to Italy. Men of Inguo who rebelled against Inguo, and were settled in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Those are all the various waves of Inguo into Europe, the Tuatha, the Gaels, the Greeks, the Gauls, the Geats, the Huns, etc., The Trojan and Roman and Briton and Celt and Frank(Sicambri) are all the waves of Istio, who originated in the Tyrrhenian Sea in ancient times.

 

[PeabodyKid]

A lot of fascinating material - but can the most recent posters please provide some links or evidence?

As relative newcomers to the forums, you might notice that on average posters generally provide more links or evidence than you do.

 

[Alaskansandman]

A lot of fascinating material - but can the most recent posters please provide some links or evidence?

As relative newcomers to the forums, you might notice that on average posters generally provide more links or evidence than you do.

If youre talking to me, let me know anything youd like links for. Its hard to provide links for everything im saying as im writing from my phone rather than a pc and im generally speaking free thought from memory.
Etymology stuff is a little trickier to provide links for all descendants of a root, while somethings cant be found on somesite that generalize info.
Most everything i say though i can provide some link for, save for my own speculative thoughts and theories.

 

[Alaskansandman]

The Gaels spell Irminones with an E, Erimon or Heremon, and I spell it Ermino. It all means the same thing, except the letter "i" should only be used for Istio, if you want to be completely correct. But the German writers put the '"i" on all three of them, which I think is confusing. Typically to denote a son of Inguo, you will use the vowels "a" or "u", sometimes "au" "eu" "ou", rarely "iu" or "ui" because that gets confusing. With Ermino, you want to stick to "e" "a" sometimes "o", and then with Istio it is always "i" or "o", rarely "a". But I still use the "i" for Inguo, to denote gender even though it is incorrect in meaning. Unguo or Hun is more concise, I feel. We used to say Saracen, but that took on a different meaning. Alan or Avar can mean the same thing. If you notice how, as far as the original people associated, the names of Britons, Romans, Franks, Sicambri, Alemani, Trojan, Cimmerian, Minoan, Cimbri, etc, there is never a "u", especially in the first syllable. We used an "a" for Franks because it was inclusive of Thurgini and Saxons originally, and Gauls later. Rarely we will use the "y" in the first syllable, like with Cyclades, Cyrus, Tyre, Troy, Tyrrhenian, the "god" Tyr, or my name, Tyrrell, which used to be Tirel. You will use a "u" in Tuscany, because the Etruscans came in an early wave of Inguo, like the Tuatha de Dannan, or Tuan. They tend to use an "a" over the "u" but I prefer the "u". "a" literally means, "anyone", whereas the other vowels are more specific. The "i" is the only one specifically male, "i" is used for the child of Istio, and "u" is used for the child of Inguo. You do not, or would not, use them for Ermino because you do not always know who the father is, so we use an "e" or "a", or if they do some notable deed an "o". The "e" used to be reserved for a person born wise or born noble, so when you see "ae" it means, anyone led by wisdom, and "ea" means the oppostite. So the Gaels are led by wise people, the Geats let their wise people be led by anyone. Gauls are led by Inguo. I am reading the vowels backwards because we used to read left to right, and if you know what each letter means, you still can. Celts are the leaders of the wise people we fought over, Goths are the ones who won the fight. Huns are the fathers of Inguo, Avars are all the men enslaved by the rulers. Tuatha are all the fighters who fought the fighters of Inguo, Tuan is all the men who fought Inguo. Etruscans. This is how they get to Italy. Men of Inguo who rebelled against Inguo, and were settled in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Those are all the various waves of Inguo into Europe, the Tuatha, the Gaels, the Greeks, the Gauls, the Geats, the Huns, etc., The Trojan and Roman and Briton and Celt and Frank(Sicambri) are all the waves of Istio, who originated in the Tyrrhenian Sea in ancient times.

Well ill check some of that out but my primary focus is still pie cosmology and beliefs. Im collecting a list or root words that may have encompassed their beliefs. Such as,

Tewteh- Tuatha, Deut(sche), Dut(ch)
Her- Jord, Earth, Var Era
Hner- Njord, Nero, Nerthus, Andros, Indra
Heryomen- jormun, Irmin, Erimon, Aryaman
Dehnu-Danu, Dan, Don, Danube
Kel- Hell, Hall, color, hold, helmet
Alb- Alfar, Alpheus, Albion, Elf, Alboin,

Understanding them and their usage i think gives a better understanding of their myths. Among collecting historical facts to use in conjunction with the etymology.

Again though, my primary concern is reconstructing the myths, not migrations.

 

[Alaskansandman]

On the subject of Irminsul, its said that Widikund didnt understand the meaning of Irmin as he dedicates a ritual to Irmin while comparing him to Mars and Hermes (Mercury) though the two are not a like.

Here i think the professionals err.

Mars was compared to Tyr as seen in Tuesdays naming from Latin, where Mars is tuesday.
Where as Hermes (Mercury) was compared to Odin.

Firstly Odin-Tyr (Odin Victory) is a term/kenning used in the Eddas.

Irmin relates to Jormun in Norse, along with Jormunrekkr, and Jormungandr. Suggesting a possibly link to Thor who fights Jormungandr, and a connection to the Aesir. As the Irminones were the Goths, whose name relates to Odin through Gautaz.

Meaning, the dedication by Widikund was likely accurate.

 

[Alaskansandman]

Well ill check some of that out but my primary focus is still pie cosmology and beliefs. Im collecting a list or root words that may have encompassed their beliefs. Such as,

Tewteh- Tuatha, Deut(sche), Dut(ch)
Her- Jord, Earth, Var Era
Hner- Njord, Nero, Nerthus, Andros, Indra
Heryomen- jormun, Irmin, Erimon, Aryaman
Dehnu-Danu, Dan, Don, Danube
Kel- Hell, Hall, color, hold, helmet
Alb- Alfar, Alpheus, Albion, Elf, Alboin,

Understanding them and their usage i think gives a better understanding of their myths. Among collecting historical facts to use in conjunction with the etymology.

Again though, my primary concern is reconstructing the myths, not migrations.

The point of this process has merit as their are allegedly 3 stages of pie culture, with the Anatolians splitting off in the 1st age.

Meaning something present in Celtic and Norse culture may or may not be present in Anatolian or Hindu. The application of names and epithets across the regions i hope to gain clarity on, along with their applied meaning towards the myths. In this we may gain a better sense of understanding about social interactions, though not Dna. Migrations may roughly be inferred but dna should probably be added to that endeavor, in time.

 

[Alaskansandman]

Concerning the Norse claim, Roberta Frank reviewed the historical evidence for the ritual in her Viking Atrocity and Skaldic Verse: The Rite of the Blood-Eagle, where she writes: "By the beginning of the ninth century, the various saga motifs—eagle sketch, rib division, lung surgery, and 'saline stimulant'—were combined in inventive sequences designed for maximum horror."[1] She concludes that the authors of the sagas misunderstood alliterative kennings that alluded to leaving one's foes face down on the battlefield, their backs torn as carrion by scavenging birds. If this is to be believed, then it is easy to surmise that the mention of his death via the blood eagle is in fact a description of his death on the battlefield, which would make both accounts of his death consistent.

Ælla of Northumbria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

valr
Language
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Old Norse
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FWOTD – 24 December 2013
Etymology 1
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From Proto-Germanic *walaz ("corpse, body, battlefield"). Cognate with Old English wæl, Old Saxon wal, Old High German wal. Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *welh₃- ("wound, injure").

Pronunciation
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(12th century Icelandic) IPA(key): /ˈwɑlr̩/
Noun
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valr m (genitive vals)

(uncountable, in the singular) the dead, slain in battle quotations ▼

Etymology 2
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Probably a contracted form of *valhaukr ("carrion-hawk"), from valr ("the slain") + haukr ("hawk").

Noun
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valr m (genitive vals, plural valir)

falcon, hawk quotations ▼

valr - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

This is why i link Valland, home of the Volsungs/waelings (Merovingians) and once Roman Gaul, to the Valkyrie (waelcyrge), and Valhalla (waelheal). With Brunhilda of the Merovingians said to be a Valkyrie.

The blood eagle possible deriving from this sort of symbolism used in Kennings and misinterpreted.

The idea of the dead, gaining their wings to heaven/Valhalla via the carrion crows upon the battlefield. Warriors and soldiers chosen to die by the queen Brunhilda the Valkyrie.

Valhalla deriving possibly from the crypts of the Merovingians.

The Welsh (modern English word for Waelisc) of Europe and Roman lands versus the Dutch (English version of Theodisc taken from Dutch as modern English should be Thedish, roughly. Compare Welsh>Waelisc)


This wouldve been a specific time period that inspired many later Germanic legends such as the Nibelungenlied and Niflung Saga written 6-800 years later roughly.

Valland - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Alaskansandman]

Concerning the Norse claim, Roberta Frank reviewed the historical evidence for the ritual in her Viking Atrocity and Skaldic Verse: The Rite of the Blood-Eagle, where she writes: "By the beginning of the ninth century, the various saga motifs—eagle sketch, rib division, lung surgery, and 'saline stimulant'—were combined in inventive sequences designed for maximum horror."[1] She concludes that the authors of the sagas misunderstood alliterative kennings that alluded to leaving one's foes face down on the battlefield, their backs torn as carrion by scavenging birds. If this is to be believed, then it is easy to surmise that the mention of his death via the blood eagle is in fact a description of his death on the battlefield, which would make both accounts of his death consistent.

Ælla of Northumbria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

valr
Language
Download PDF
Watch
Edit
Old Norse
edit
FWOTD – 24 December 2013
Etymology 1
edit
From Proto-Germanic *walaz ("corpse, body, battlefield"). Cognate with Old English wæl, Old Saxon wal, Old High German wal. Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *welh₃- ("wound, injure").

Pronunciation
edit
(12th century Icelandic) IPA(key): /ˈwɑlr̩/
Noun
edit
valr m (genitive vals)

(uncountable, in the singular) the dead, slain in battle quotations ▼

Etymology 2
edit
Probably a contracted form of *valhaukr ("carrion-hawk"), from valr ("the slain") + haukr ("hawk").

Noun
edit
valr m (genitive vals, plural valir)

falcon, hawk quotations ▼

valr - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

This is why i link Valland, home of the Volsungs/waelings (Merovingians) and once Roman Gaul, to the Valkyrie (waelcyrge), and Valhalla (waelheal). With Brunhilda of the Merovingians said to be a Valkyrie.

The blood eagle possible deriving from this sort of symbolism used in Kennings and misinterpreted.

The idea of the dead, gaining their wings to heaven/Valhalla via the carrion crows upon the battlefield. Warriors and soldiers chosen to die by the queen Brunhilda the Valkyrie.

Valhalla deriving possibly from the crypts of the Merovingians.

The Welsh (modern English word for Waelisc) of Europe and Roman lands versus the Dutch (English version of Theodisc taken from Dutch as modern English should be Thedish, roughly. Compare Welsh>Waelisc)


This wouldve been a specific time period that inspired many later Germanic legends such as the Nibelungenlied and Niflung Saga written 6-800 years later roughly.

Valland - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Vandals - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In Britannia
In AD 278, Emperor Probus on defeating the Vandals and Burgundians, transferred many of them to Britain. It is unknown where they were settled, though Silchester seems to be a likely candidate. The city bears the name of the Silingi, is only one of six that existed in Roman Britain that did not survive the Sub-Roman era,[45] and appears to have been ritually cursed – likely by the Anglo-Saxons – before being abandoned.[46][47]


Nidavollr translates to Nithawold in Old English, or more generally, Nithalland/ netherlands.

North of Nidavollr should be the Niflheim, home of the Niflung Burgundians. (Hampshire- Silchester where Burgundians went)


The Jutes
edit
Records are sparse for the next 300 years, but later chroniclers speak of an influx of Jutes[28] – an amalgam of Cimbri, Teutons, Gutones and Charudes called Eudoses,[29] Eotenas,[30] Iutae[31] or Euthiones[32] in other sources - and recorded by Bede in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People in the early eighth century:

Hampshire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Teuton= Eoten= Jotun

Hell, daughter of the Jotun Loki and ruler of the Niflheim.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Germanic/etunaz

Reconstructionroto-Germanic/etunaz
Language
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This Proto-Germanic entry contains reconstructed terms and roots. As such, the term(s) in this entry are not directly attested, but are hypothesized to have existed based on comparative evidence.
Proto-Germanic
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Etymology
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From *etaną (“to eat”), from Proto-Indo-European *h₁ed- (“to eat”).

Pronunciation
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IPA(key): /ˈe.tu.nɑz/
Noun
edit
*etunaz m

an overeater, glutton
a giant
Inflection
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more ▼masculine a-stem
singular
nominative*etunaz
genitive*etunas, *etunis
Synonyms
edit
*risiz
Descendants
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Proto-West Germanic: *etun
Old English: eoten
Middle English: eten, eotend, eatant, yoten, geten
English: etten, ettin, eaton
Scots: etin, etyn, eattin, yetin
Old Saxon: *etun, *etinna
Middle Low German: eteninne
Old Norse: jǫtunn
Icelandic: jötunn
Faroese: jøtun
Norwegian Nynorsk: jøtul, jutul
Norwegian Bokmål: jutul
Old Swedish: iætun, iætte
Swedish: jätte
→ Finnish: jätti
→ Finnish: jatuli
Old Danish: iætæn
Danish: jætte
→ Norwegian Nynorsk: jotun, jøtun (artificially revived)
→ Norwegian Bokmål: jotun (artificially revived)
→ English: jotun
→ Finnish: jotuni
→? Proto-Finnic: *etana (see there for further descendants)

 

[Alaskansandman]

Vandals - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In Britannia
In AD 278, Emperor Probus on defeating the Vandals and Burgundians, transferred many of them to Britain. It is unknown where they were settled, though Silchester seems to be a likely candidate. The city bears the name of the Silingi, is only one of six that existed in Roman Britain that did not survive the Sub-Roman era,[45] and appears to have been ritually cursed – likely by the Anglo-Saxons – before being abandoned.[46][47]


Nidavollr translates to Nithawold in Old English, or more generally, Nithalland/ netherlands.

North of Nidavollr should be the Niflheim, home of the Niflung Burgundians. (Hampshire- Silchester where Burgundians went)


The Jutes
edit
Records are sparse for the next 300 years, but later chroniclers speak of an influx of Jutes[28] – an amalgam of Cimbri, Teutons, Gutones and Charudes called Eudoses,[29] Eotenas,[30] Iutae[31] or Euthiones[32] in other sources - and recorded by Bede in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People in the early eighth century:

Hampshire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Teuton= Eoten= Jotun

Hell, daughter of the Jotun Loki and ruler of the Niflheim.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Germanic/etunaz

Reconstructionroto-Germanic/etunaz
Language
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Edit
This Proto-Germanic entry contains reconstructed terms and roots. As such, the term(s) in this entry are not directly attested, but are hypothesized to have existed based on comparative evidence.
Proto-Germanic
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Etymology
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From *etaną ("to eat"), from Proto-Indo-European *h₁ed- ("to eat").

Pronunciation
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IPA(key): /ˈe.tu.nɑz/
Noun
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*etunaz m

an overeater, glutton
a giant
Inflection
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more ▼masculine a-stem
singular
nominative*etunaz
genitive*etunas, *etunis
Synonyms
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*risiz
Descendants
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Proto-West Germanic: *etun
Old English: eoten
Middle English: eten, eotend, eatant, yoten, geten
English: etten, ettin, eaton
Scots: etin, etyn, eattin, yetin
Old Saxon: *etun, *etinna
Middle Low German: eteninne
Old Norse: jǫtunn
Icelandic: jötunn
Faroese: jøtun
Norwegian Nynorsk: jøtul, jutul
Norwegian Bokmål: jutul
Old Swedish: iætun, iætte
Swedish: jätte
→ Finnish: jätti
→ Finnish: jatuli
Old Danish: iætæn
Danish: jætte
→ Norwegian Nynorsk: jotun, jøtun (artificially revived)
→ Norwegian Bokmål: jotun (artificially revived)
→ English: jotun
→ Finnish: jotuni
→? Proto-Finnic: *etana (see there for further descendants)

This all gives us Niflheim and Hellheim in England (Norse tales tell of Odin making Hell queen of Niflheim), Nidavollr in the Netherlands, Alfheim in Sweden and saxon land to Jutland, Jotunheim possibly north east of Alfheim based on tales.

We get midgard in Mediterranean and Jrr Tolkien helps place Ethiopia area roughly as Muspelheim (see Sigelwarra essay).

Snori places Asgard east of Don River (Tanais river), and Vanaheim west of the Don, between the Danube and Don Rivers. Where Jormunrekkr supposedly ruled Oium.

I think these places evolved through misinterpretation and became more mythical in time. Heaven and Hell being a general concept not exclusive to Niflheim and Muspelheim. Hell would still be in the earth or beneath it, but accessible by some entrance in the Niflheim. Similarly one needs cross the rainbow bridge from Asgard to reach Heaven possibly, rather than Asgard itself.
As exampled by the lack of any such bridge in existence, specially during the proposed time.


Asgard mayhave been on the edge of Midgard (roman held meditteranean) in the east by sea of Azov near roman border limits. Roman lands also coming to be called Mannheim and Valland.

Germanic soldier in the Roman army since before Arminius wouldve been to Britain, Germania, and Egypt among other places. Extending their world view into mythic proportions akin to modern El Dorado legends.

 

[Alaskansandman]

The idea of Tuisto as Jord, and parent of Mannus/ Njord (Nerthus) has merit via Earth/Jord coming from Nerthus, I think. Erth perhaps.
If Tuisto is Jord, and Yemo, the her mate should be Thidi (trito) seen in Greek Zeus and Norse Odin. With Odin-Tyr being a kenning in Norse for Odin, and Tyr connecting to Zeus through Dyews/Dewos.

This split would hence forth give us the world above (a term seen in aplication to Elffyddyn, the Welsh name for Albion. In contrast to the world below). Connecting the Alfar to the world above.

The world below connecting to Earth, the Sea and Hell. Sometimes represented by a goddess named Danu, Dan, or Don from pie Dehnu. Or from Dheghom, giving us Poseidon, Gaia, Semele, and Demeter among others. Dehnu likely related or from Dheghom.

This a union seen in Danu and the Dhahda, Gaia and Zeus, and other variants like Poseidon and Tritogeneia birthing Minyas (manu).

So Mannus from Nerthus fits the comparative myth cycles and follows the manu, yemo, and trito archetype.

 

[Alaskansandman]

The Gaels spell Irminones with an E, Erimon or Heremon, and I spell it Ermino. It all means the same thing, except the letter "i" should only be used for Istio, if you want to be completely correct. But the German writers put the '"i" on all three of them, which I think is confusing. Typically to denote a son of Inguo, you will use the vowels "a" or "u", sometimes "au" "eu" "ou", rarely "iu" or "ui" because that gets confusing. With Ermino, you want to stick to "e" "a" sometimes "o", and then with Istio it is always "i" or "o", rarely "a". But I still use the "i" for Inguo, to denote gender even though it is incorrect in meaning. Unguo or Hun is more concise, I feel. We used to say Saracen, but that took on a different meaning. Alan or Avar can mean the same thing. If you notice how, as far as the original people associated, the names of Britons, Romans, Franks, Sicambri, Alemani, Trojan, Cimmerian, Minoan, Cimbri, etc, there is never a "u", especially in the first syllable. We used an "a" for Franks because it was inclusive of Thurgini and Saxons originally, and Gauls later. Rarely we will use the "y" in the first syllable, like with Cyclades, Cyrus, Tyre, Troy, Tyrrhenian, the "god" Tyr, or my name, Tyrrell, which used to be Tirel. You will use a "u" in Tuscany, because the Etruscans came in an early wave of Inguo, like the Tuatha de Dannan, or Tuan. They tend to use an "a" over the "u" but I prefer the "u". "a" literally means, "anyone", whereas the other vowels are more specific. The "i" is the only one specifically male, "i" is used for the child of Istio, and "u" is used for the child of Inguo. You do not, or would not, use them for Ermino because you do not always know who the father is, so we use an "e" or "a", or if they do some notable deed an "o". The "e" used to be reserved for a person born wise or born noble, so when you see "ae" it means, anyone led by wisdom, and "ea" means the oppostite. So the Gaels are led by wise people, the Geats let their wise people be led by anyone. Gauls are led by Inguo. I am reading the vowels backwards because we used to read left to right, and if you know what each letter means, you still can. Celts are the leaders of the wise people we fought over, Goths are the ones who won the fight. Huns are the fathers of Inguo, Avars are all the men enslaved by the rulers. Tuatha are all the fighters who fought the fighters of Inguo, Tuan is all the men who fought Inguo. Etruscans. This is how they get to Italy. Men of Inguo who rebelled against Inguo, and were settled in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Those are all the various waves of Inguo into Europe, the Tuatha, the Gaels, the Greeks, the Gauls, the Geats, the Huns, etc., The Trojan and Roman and Briton and Celt and Frank(Sicambri) are all the waves of Istio, who originated in the Tyrrhenian Sea in ancient times.

If we accept that the Trojan War did not happen how and where we are told, and that the myths of the Tuatha De Danann vs the Fomorians, Aesir vs the Vanir, Latins vs Sabines, etc are all related.

Then Merovingian or others claims to descent from the Trojan War would be more right than wrong. They practiced comparative mythology back then and may have recognized the similarity in myths. So to descend from the Aesir and Vanir war would be akin to descending from Troy. This makes the most practical sense in my opinion. The true war happening some where near the Don River and Danube.

 

[Nivelon]

If we accept that the Trojan War did not happen how and where we are told, and that the myths of the Tuatha De Danann vs the Fomorians, Aesir vs the Vanir, Latins vs Sabines, etc are all related.

Then Merovingian or others claims to descent from the Trojan War would be more right than wrong. They practiced comparative mythology back then and may have recognized the similarity in myths. So to descend from the Aesir and Vanir war would be akin to descending from Troy. This makes the most practical sense in my opinion. The true war happening some where near the Don River and Danube.

They are all related. But the Trojan War pretty much happened exactly when and where we think it did. The Tuatha and Fomorians predate the Trojan War. The Latins and Sabines we only get one incident in the conflict. The Sabine women were women from Tyre sold to the Sabines prior to the founding of Rome. The people of Tyre and Troy were related in the Bronze Age. While the Greeks prefered Hebrew women for slaves, the Sabateens preferred Tyrian women. The Conflicts around the Don and Danube involve the Cimmerians, who the Franks descend from. The Latins and Romans and Britons do not descend from the Cimmerians. The Franks were the line of Priam, Aeneas was not the male line of Priam. Both were Trojan. These stories are not always about one incident, but an ongoing struggle. Today the struggle is not going so well for my side but I am optimistic. When Yang is at its greatest is the birth of Yin.

 

[Alaskansandman]

They are all related. But the Trojan War pretty much happened exactly when and where we think it did. The Tuatha and Fomorians predate the Trojan War. The Latins and Sabines we only get one incident in the conflict. The Sabine women were women from Tyre sold to the Sabines prior to the founding of Rome. The people of Tyre and Troy were related in the Bronze Age. While the Greeks prefered Hebrew women for slaves, the Sabateens preferred Tyrian women. The Conflicts around the Don and Danube involve the Cimmerians, who the Franks descend from. The Latins and Romans and Britons do not descend from the Cimmerians. The Franks were the line of Priam, Aeneas was not the male line of Priam. Both were Trojan. These stories are not always about one incident, but an ongoing struggle. Today the struggle is not going so well for my side but I am optimistic. When Yang is at its greatest is the birth of Yin.

Do you have actual kings lists for much of this? Pseudohistorical or not. I am curious about ancient claims.
I have a book on compiled information, including kings lists (and all variant claims) for the Germanic peoples. Including the list of roman emperors and major battles.

I would be interested to see a graph or something for these descents you claim. If available.