America played the key role in German defeat in World War I

Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
Can you please quote things properly. Work, Author , page number. quotes without references are pretty much meaningless.You are going to use this stuff please include page number.

Author and work already are included? If you'd like a complete bibliography, however:

World War I Databook by Cox and Ellis
Castles of Steel by Robert Massie
1914-1918: The History of the First World War by David Stephenson
Too Proud To Fight: Woodrow Wilson's Neutrality by Patrick Devlin
The Life and Letters of Walter H. Page by Burton J. Hendrick
 
Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
A far from universal opinion. Once the Germans exhursted themselevs in he 1918 offensives the allies french included would have gone on the attack. The Asesmenets of tFernch army chnage over time the decison to restict offensives action, was one the changed with changing circumstances,

You're welcome to cite something to counter my source. As it were, the French have from April of 1917 to March of 1918, almost a year. Without the U.S. an offensive is also not possible, as the AEF took over 20% of the front, resulting in the Anglo-French being too over-extended to go on the offensive.

Yeah but the US still required 1 million tons of british shipping to move US troops. US shipping ocntributed nothing to the British requirements,, in fact was net drag with the allocation to ship US troops. A lot of teh US construction had been ordered and paid for by the British. Sure they propbaley got some compensation when the US took it over, but likely kock down rates, like the British owned production lines for rifles turned over to the US which atcually supplied most of the AEF's rifles.

Good thing the U.S. built 2.6 Million tons then, as that still results in 1.6 Million tons added to the Entente war total and more than Britain built in 1918.

The introduction of convoys just relieved this pressure, once convoys were in it was over as a threat,

Which is not possible without the U.S. Navy.

US destroyers spent a lot of time escorting US troop convoys.

Actually no, as by November of 1917-long before the AEF was arriving in force-93% of all convoys were escorted.

37 US destroyers versus 400 British. It's just simply not true that 10% more destroyers was in anyway way decisive especially as they were mostly escorting US troop convoys overall the British may have actually been better off for escorts without the US entry (no us troop convoys)

The convoy debate was along standing one. Teh IDea that teh British would just lose the war before trying something that lareg amounts of people were strongly pushng for and that a handful of destroyers would make a it unowrkable is something just not supported by the facts.

Which is a fundamental misunderstanding; the British did not have 400 Destroyers capable of escort duties due to existing commitments, such as maintaining their own blockade of Germany. As well, given Britain had just eight weeks of Oil left, they'd rather soon have no destroyers at all regardless, no?

Have you ever considered that Jellicore had diplomatic reasons for saying nice thing about the Americans?

No because the quotes are from his 1935 book The Submarine Menace; he had no reason then to be diplomatic.
 
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Author and work already are included? If you'd like a complete bibliography, however:

World War I Databook by Cox and Ellis
Castles of Steel by Robert Massie
1914-1918: The History of the First World War by David Stephenson
Too Proud To Fight: Woodrow Wilson's Neutrality by Patrick Devlin
The Life and Letters of Walter H. Page by Burton J. Hendrick
PAGENUMBER.

do it properly. providingthebook and quoite without pagenumber is basically meaningless.


No when you quote something provide wehre inteh book. Pagenumber,
Popel cna look at theosurce withouthavingto read teh entire book.
 
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
You're welcome to cite something to counter my source. As it were, the French have from April of 1917 to March of 1918, almost a year. Without the U.S. an offensive is also not possible, as the AEF took over 20% of the front, resulting in the Anglo-French being too over-extended to go on the offensive.
Shifting the argument,. the US forces actuakky fighting during the period of the German offensives was very small. The amount of US forces deplyed was much much smallerthanteh British forces deployed form Britain. Lloyd George had been withholding large amounts of manpower from Haig.

At the End of 1918 teh collapse of Austria Hngary, Bulkgaria, Turkey was unrelantaed to US entry into the war and would have released large amounts of Entente troops.

20% iof the front is not 20% of the fighting,


Good thing the U.S. built 2.6 Million tons then, as that still results in 1.6 Million tons added to the Entente war total and more than Britain built in 1918.

Entirely consumed in US transport requirements. They were not added to the genral entente pool of shipping. the US drew on 1 million tons of british shipping on top of that,
The Net effect was reduction of shipping available to Britian.


Which is not possible without the U.S. Navy.
On what basis? The US destoryers could esily been replaced by British destroyers.

Actually no, as by November of 1917-long before the AEF was arriving in force-93% of all convoys were escorted.
releavnce? 98% if convoys were not escorted by US destroyers.

Which is a fundamental misunderstanding; the British did not have 400 Destroyers capable of escort duties due to existing commitments, such as maintaining their own blockade of Germany. As well, given Britain had just eight weeks of Oil left, they'd rather soon have no destroyers at all regardless, no?
So you are arguely the British woudl surrender rather than redeployoing some of their exsistsing destroyers. That reducing teh nubertr ofdestoyrers form fleet dutues by 5% would just not bve attempted and the BRitish woudl surrender rather than try it. It ludicrous.

Convoy would be attempted, and would be sucessful.

Oil anotehr argument.There ius no doubt the finaicial question is more directly inputful But the British would not be totally without resources they were exporting. Th etotal war costs , ;loans was a small eniughto be managed. It's foreign exchange andteh ability to draft in more resources. Without USloands rteh vats US imports would have been massively cut back there is no doubt. But some imports would have continued and on -US imports would not gave been effected.

The British could cut back enormously on exports for unneeded things. fooder for the cavalry. cut back some of the battleship construction.



No because the quotes are from his 1935 book The Submarine Menace; he had no reason then to be diplomatic.
Well if your quited your sources propeorly we would not have to go through this.
 
Joined Jun 2012
7,405 Posts | 485+
At present SD, USA
Respectfully, you didn't read what was posted because the citations I provided decisively answer and refute these assertions. To requote:

"Our financial agents tell us in effect that, by the use of every available device, and possibly at the cost of postponing payments by bank overdrafts, we shall still be solvent on 31st March [1917]. They cannot tell us how this result is to be achieved, but they hope and believe it will be possible."

This is the British Treasury saying every means they have is only enough to get them to April, with nothing left past that. Too Proud To Fight: Woodrow Wilson's Neutrality by Patrick Devlin, from which this is quoted, also includes the following on the state of the French:

"France had in October [1916] completely exhausted her gold and dollar resources, and in order to finance her American expenditures for the next six months needed at least £40,000,000 [about $200 million at 1916 exchange rates] from the British Treasury in addition to the sums already promised."

Further, The Life and Letters of Walter H. Page by Burton J. Hendrick puts it succinctly:

"It should always be remembered, however, that Great Britain was financing not only herself, but her Allies, and that the difficult condition in which she now found herself was caused by the not too considerate demands of the nations with which she was allied in the war. Thus by April 6, 1917, Great Britain had overdrawn her account with JP Morgan to the extent of $400,000,000 and had no cash available with which to meet this overdraft. This obligation had been incurred in the purchase of supplies, both for Great Britain and for the Allied governments; and securities, largely British-owned stocks and bonds, had been deposited to protect the bankers. The money was now coming due; if the obligations were not met, the credit of Great Britain in this country would reach the vanishing point. Though at first there was a slight misunderstanding about this matter, the American government finally paid this overdraft out of the proceeds of the First Liberty Loan. This act saved the credit of the Allied countries. The first danger that threatened, the isolation and starvation of Great Britain, was therefore overcome."

The British and French themselves both, in contemporary documents stated they had had no other means left; the British directly said April of 1917 was their cut off after which they would be unable to finance the war. And no, they could not undertake anymore loans without collateral from the U.S. as Congress had specifically passed provisions preventing that in the 1916 Revenue Act, with Wilson in December '16/January '17 stating he was bound to follow such and had the Federal Reserve moving to cut the Entente credit.

In short, the Germans showed they could last until November of 1918, but the British couldn't last until May of 1917 without the U.S.

All of this, however, ignores the state of the German economy by late 1916 to 1918 and thus the condition of the German economy when the war ended. The fact that it "survived" is not necessarily proof of strength unless you can prove HOW it survived. And since the British blockade was intact from the moment the British entered the war in 1914, I'd find it doubtful that Germany was surviving on trade. The British weren't allowing for that. So how then did Germany survive? From what is known... the German economy largely carried on through inflation as the war progressed as they were cut off from trade.

The British and French didn't go down that path because unlike the Germans who were cut off from trade from 1914 onward, they had greater access to trade and to the US, and thus had the option for loans. Thus they didn't have the pressure to engage in what would be otherwise risky spending practices that the Germans ultimately engaged in.

Again, to be respectful, I don't think you understand how collateral works. The Anglo-French, as part of the loans, turned over their assets within the legal jurisdiction of the United States or surrendered it to them as part of the loan deals. Germany could take anything they wanted from the Entente and the U.S. would not suffer for it because they already had the collateral in their possessions. If you've ever used a Pawn Shop, it's the same principle; you give them your good and if you fail to repay they just keep it.

I understand what collateral is and what it can be used for... but in agreements between nations, it is not something so simple as France and Britain giving something to the US and then getting money back. They were in midst of a major war and needed everything they had. At best, I would imagine the British and French could offer was credit and that they were good to pay the loans back. Anything physical that they could have offered would be inconsequential to the war effort... They would not be offering something that would amount to currency in some form in exchange for currency. It would be like going to a store and asking them to exchange 1 dollar bill for four quarters and then calling it a loan.

They were not, however. Britain in April of 1917 had six weeks of grain and eight weeks of oil left, for example. As for the Germans, Avner Offer states in The First World War, an Agrarian Interpretation:

"In the worst year (1918) despite the influenza, the crude death rate merely reverted to the levels prevailing in the years 1901-1905. The war at its worst caused the loss of not much more than a decade of public health progress."

You've cited 1917 but the reason for the food issues then was because the 1916 potato harvest had failed due to crop blight; by early 1918 the average ration was back up to around 1,500 calories. Up until the aforementioned crop blight the food situation on the homefront was relatively stable and it was common for soldiers at the front to receive food from home.

The key word at the end is "relatively." The German government generally did more to feed the German army rather than the German people. And in 1914-1915, the German people could afford to make some "sacrifices" as it were because of both pre-war stock and that German losses were such that the war wasn't yet sucking the German home population into the army... thus there would still be some that were kept safe for farm labor and so on... or that Germany's women were free to take over some of those roles. However, 1916 proved to be bigger for more reasons than just blight. Germany found itself in 3 bloody battles that year... One at Verdun, of their own making, and from which they couldn't get out of. One forced on them by the Russians in having to rescue Austria from the Brusilov Offensive, and weakening the Verdun sector. And the third was forced on them on the Somme by the French and British... primarily the British and again sucking troops away from Verdun to hold the lines. By the end of the year, more German men were being pulled into the army to replace the losses from the Year of Battles and thus leaving behind women and those too wounded to be of use to the army. And here, regardless of blight, that would have an effect on German agriculture production.

The French and British had much the same concerns, and from an economic perspective, they benefitted from trade with America to help them... and perhaps without that trade they would have faced similar privations as the Germans... But the Germans still faced it sooner and were still suffering by the time the Russians capitulated in late 1917. Hence why the Germans maintained troops in the East even after Brest-Litovsk to make sure they could get as much Ukrainian grain as possible. In this, that ration coming back up in 1918 is likely more due to getting food from the Ukraine... and even then... most of it was going straight to the army or some other source... Not the German people. For if the German position was as strong as you would claim it is... the reports of German soldiers stopping or stalling the 1918 Spring Offensive to loot British trenches of food and other material would not have been necessary.

The German plan was actually to hopefully blockade the UK to surrender before the U.S. entry became an issue, which they nearly succeeded in. Japan was never considered a part of the process.

Japan was part of the Zimmerman Note. The base German idea was that Germany, through Mexico would arrange a separate peace with Japan. Japan would then in turn declare war on the US to support Mexico. And while America would likely declare war on Germany over the proposed violation of its territory and the resumption of submarine warfare, they would then be too busy fighting in the Mexican desert and the far reaches of the Pacific to do anything about the war in Europe. Luck much of everything else in German planning... that failed as Mexico never accepted the offer and Japan showed no interest in a separate peace at the time.

As for the threat to Britain... while the Germans came close, they ultimately lost the battle as soon as the Entente began to implement the convoy system, minimizing the number of ships needed for escort duty since the ships going to Europe would be in one big group. And while men like Sims may have wished to brag on how American destroyers were crucial for the convoy system to work... Britain had the destroyers available if absolutely need be. It might have required pulling them from the blockade to do so, but by 1918 with so many powers at war with Germany... it wouldn't be as if the Germans would see their trade skyrocket at that point.

The weight of citations is that the Entente was no better off to than the Germans at worst the available evidence firmly reveals the dependency upon which the Entente was on the U.S.

Much of which seems to also ignore much of Germany's situation, and what is used is selective... thus inflating the American claim. The British and French may not have far better off than the Germans by 1918, but the key word is better. It may not have been by much... but they were still better...

And while I would agree that the Americans helped financially... that alone was not the magic bullet. For a well funded army that either won't fight or fights poorly is not going to be effective. In this, the American loans would have been worthless if the British and French just caved when the Germans attacked in 1918.
 
Joined Aug 2013
899 Posts | 592+
Finland
From a very simplistic viewpoint, the grinding bloody trench warfare was not an American military tactic. Warfare changed. I think because of that change the war was concluded. Otherwise it seems that it would be another year and a half of bloody stalemate. The USA upped the "anty", so to speak, and the enemy had to gamble their pot.
When the AEF first arrived, they were indeed not using trench warfare tactics, instead they were basically repeating the errors the others had learned in 1914.

Once in battle in the spring and summer of 1918 American officers defaulted to the old-school, infantry-centric approach favored by Pershing. This amounted to lines of infantrymen with fixed bayonets advancing on enemy positions with little in the way of artillery preparation prior to the attack, light fire support, and inadequate communications with supporting artillery. On the defensive, men were expected largely to rely on guts and the firepower of their Springfield rifles. The hope was for a breakthrough and a rapid resumption of maneuver warfare rather than static fighting.

Fortunately this soon changed, the AEF was willing to learn quickly. But they really didn't bring anything new to the battlefield, they instead went through a crash course of modern warfare with the help of their allies.
 
Joined Jan 2017
7,817 Posts | 3,302+
Republika Srpska
Not at all.

Even if one solely looks to the military aspects, the Anglo-French would've collapsed by weight of the German military machine. For one, the French had been forced by the military situation of 1917 to swear off any further offensives until the Americans arrived; if the U.S. Army is never coming, France does not have that luxury.
What "weight of the German military machine"? Germany was in shambles in early 1918. The country was ravaged by the blockade and there was widespread starvation. Their allies were also on the verge of collapse thus making Germany's situation even worse. Sure, Germany won the Eastern Front, but it was a Pyrrhic victory at best. Brest Litovsk basically guaranteed that Germany would have to stay in the East and get involved in the Russian Civil War. The Spring Offensive was a last desperate move to try to accomplish something. I will give you that the imminent arrival of the Americans was one of the main factors that pushed Germany to attempt this offensive but even without the Americans' arrival, Germany was bound to attempt a similar thing sooner or later because the strategy of just defending and waiting the Entente out was not a viable strategy since Germany was in a worse shape than its enemies. And it would eventually end the same way. Germany simply lacked strength to complete the offensive.

France was in a bad shape, but the soldiers were primarily angry because of the pointless offensives that achieved little and cost a lot. Defence is another thing. France was going to defend itself when the Germans attacked, regardless of the Americans being in the war or not. And as I said, Germany had almost no chance of actually beating the Entente with this offensive so when their offensive inevitably stalled, the French were going to attack them with or without the US.
 
Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
What "weight of the German military machine"? Germany was in shambles in early 1918. The country was ravaged by the blockade and there was widespread starvation. Their allies were also on the verge of collapse thus making Germany's situation even worse. Sure, Germany won the Eastern Front, but it was a Pyrrhic victory at best. Brest Litovsk basically guaranteed that Germany would have to stay in the East and get involved in the Russian Civil War. The Spring Offensive was a last desperate move to try to accomplish something. I will give you that the imminent arrival of the Americans was one of the main factors that pushed Germany to attempt this offensive but even without the Americans' arrival, Germany was bound to attempt a similar thing sooner or later because the strategy of just defending and waiting the Entente out was not a viable strategy since Germany was in a worse shape than its enemies. And it would eventually end the same way. Germany simply lacked strength to complete the offensive.

France was in a bad shape, but the soldiers were primarily angry because of the pointless offensives that achieved little and cost a lot. Defence is another thing. France was going to defend itself when the Germans attacked, regardless of the Americans being in the war or not. And as I said, Germany had almost no chance of actually beating the Entente with this offensive so when their offensive inevitably stalled, the French were going to attack them with or without the US.

As I've already cited, the blockade is extremely overstated and mass starvation never broke out; that was myth and has been refuted by most modern research. As for the Anglo-French, they can't defend if they have no oil, food or munitions, can they? And all of that depended on American entry by this stage of the war.
 
Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
Shifting the argument,. the US forces actuakky fighting during the period of the German offensives was very small. The amount of US forces deplyed was much much smallerthanteh British forces deployed form Britain. Lloyd George had been withholding large amounts of manpower from Haig.

At the End of 1918 teh collapse of Austria Hngary, Bulkgaria, Turkey was unrelantaed to US entry into the war and would have released large amounts of Entente troops.

I did not shift the argument, you missed the point. As my citation notes, the French were on the verge of a collapse of morale and the promise of American reinforcements is what preserved them through the year until said Americans did finally arrive.

20% iof the front is not 20% of the fighting,

Irrelevant to the point made because the front still has to be garrisoned regardless of whether there is fighting or not. If it falls upon the French to do so, the troops being used for that can't be used in offensives.

Entirely consumed in US transport requirements. They were not added to the genral entente pool of shipping. the US drew on 1 million tons of british shipping on top of that,
The Net effect was reduction of shipping available to Britian.

A citation is needed.

On what basis? The US destoryers could esily been replaced by British destroyers.

Not according to Admiral Sims or Admiral Jellicoe, so please provide a citation.

releavnce? 98% if convoys were not escorted by US destroyers.

Again, not supported by the evidence I've seen. Please provide a citation.

So you are arguely the British woudl surrender rather than redeployoing some of their exsistsing destroyers. That reducing teh nubertr ofdestoyrers form fleet dutues by 5% would just not bve attempted and the BRitish woudl surrender rather than try it. It ludicrous.

Convoy would be attempted, and would be sucessful.

Again, this is not supported by the contemporary commanders in their memoirs and reports, nor is it supported by the research I've provided that shows counter to that. Again, please provide a citation.

Oil anotehr argument.There ius no doubt the finaicial question is more directly inputful But the British would not be totally without resources they were exporting. Th etotal war costs , ;loans was a small eniughto be managed. It's foreign exchange andteh ability to draft in more resources. Without USloands rteh vats US imports would have been massively cut back there is no doubt. But some imports would have continued and on -US imports would not gave been effected.

The British could cut back enormously on exports for unneeded things. fooder for the cavalry. cut back some of the battleship construction.

The British Treasury report from October of 1916, which I've provided twice now, decisively says otherwise. According to them, with absolutely every available measure used, they could not continue financially past April of 1917. Once again, if you have something that says otherwise, please cite it.

As for the cut backs, again, I've already cited that the relevant Departments in the UK said they could not scale back consumption sufficiently to meet their needs.

Well if your quited your sources propeorly we would not have to go through this.

I've provided my sources, so this point is without merit. On the other hand, you have not provided any.
 
Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
All of this, however, ignores the state of the German economy by late 1916 to 1918 and thus the condition of the German economy when the war ended. The fact that it "survived" is not necessarily proof of strength unless you can prove HOW it survived. And since the British blockade was intact from the moment the British entered the war in 1914, I'd find it doubtful that Germany was surviving on trade. The British weren't allowing for that. So how then did Germany survive? From what is known... the German economy largely carried on through inflation as the war progressed as they were cut off from trade.

With respect, I fail to see your point. The how is irrelevant to the fact it did survive and we can compare the German position of April 1917 to those of the Entente. According to the British, they would run out of money in April of 1917, grain in May of 1917, and Oil in June of 1917. The French, meanwhile, gave November 1917 as the absolute latest they could stay in the conflict. Germany did not seek terms until November of 1918. Simple math dictates what will happen here.

The British and French didn't go down that path because unlike the Germans who were cut off from trade from 1914 onward, they had greater access to trade and to the US, and thus had the option for loans. Thus they didn't have the pressure to engage in what would be otherwise risky spending practices that the Germans ultimately engaged in.

And by April of 1917, that path was closing for the Anglo-French unless they got the U.S. involved....which shows the U.S. played the key role.

I understand what collateral is and what it can be used for... but in agreements between nations, it is not something so simple as France and Britain giving something to the US and then getting money back. They were in midst of a major war and needed everything they had. At best, I would imagine the British and French could offer was credit and that they were good to pay the loans back. Anything physical that they could have offered would be inconsequential to the war effort... They would not be offering something that would amount to currency in some form in exchange for currency. It would be like going to a store and asking them to exchange 1 dollar bill for four quarters and then calling it a loan.

It is indeed that simple; all collateral was assets which the Anglo-French had in the United States itself or within its immediate reach. If you have evidence the Pre-1917 loans largely did not have collateral available for seizing by the U.S. Government, I am welcome to see it.

The key word at the end is "relatively." The German government generally did more to feed the German army rather than the German people. And in 1914-1915, the German people could afford to make some "sacrifices" as it were because of both pre-war stock and that German losses were such that the war wasn't yet sucking the German home population into the army... thus there would still be some that were kept safe for farm labor and so on... or that Germany's women were free to take over some of those roles. However, 1916 proved to be bigger for more reasons than just blight. Germany found itself in 3 bloody battles that year... One at Verdun, of their own making, and from which they couldn't get out of. One forced on them by the Russians in having to rescue Austria from the Brusilov Offensive, and weakening the Verdun sector. And the third was forced on them on the Somme by the French and British... primarily the British and again sucking troops away from Verdun to hold the lines. By the end of the year, more German men were being pulled into the army to replace the losses from the Year of Battles and thus leaving behind women and those too wounded to be of use to the army. And here, regardless of blight, that would have an effect on German agriculture production.

No, it was as depicted; otherwise, how did food rations increase year over year after the doldrums of 1916? And the battles that year had no effect, quite the opposite; under the Hindenburg Programme nearly a million men were demobilized, not sucked out of Germany.

The French and British had much the same concerns, and from an economic perspective, they benefitted from trade with America to help them... and perhaps without that trade they would have faced similar privations as the Germans... But the Germans still faced it sooner and were still suffering by the time the Russians capitulated in late 1917. Hence why the Germans maintained troops in the East even after Brest-Litovsk to make sure they could get as much Ukrainian grain as possible. In this, that ration coming back up in 1918 is likely more due to getting food from the Ukraine... and even then... most of it was going straight to the army or some other source... Not the German people. For if the German position was as strong as you would claim it is... the reports of German soldiers stopping or stalling the 1918 Spring Offensive to loot British trenches of food and other material would not have been necessary.

British grain runs out in May of 1917. Germany survived until November of 1918. Again, simple math dictates where the two sides were before American entry.

Japan was part of the Zimmerman Note. The base German idea was that Germany, through Mexico would arrange a separate peace with Japan. Japan would then in turn declare war on the US to support Mexico. And while America would likely declare war on Germany over the proposed violation of its territory and the resumption of submarine warfare, they would then be too busy fighting in the Mexican desert and the far reaches of the Pacific to do anything about the war in Europe. Luck much of everything else in German planning... that failed as Mexico never accepted the offer and Japan showed no interest in a separate peace at the time.

Japan was already in the war versus Germany so, again, Japan had nothing to do with the telegram. If you have evidence, please cite it.

As for the threat to Britain... while the Germans came close, they ultimately lost the battle as soon as the Entente began to implement the convoy system, minimizing the number of ships needed for escort duty since the ships going to Europe would be in one big group. And while men like Sims may have wished to brag on how American destroyers were crucial for the convoy system to work... Britain had the destroyers available if absolutely need be. It might have required pulling them from the blockade to do so, but by 1918 with so many powers at war with Germany... it wouldn't be as if the Germans would see their trade skyrocket at that point.

Admiral Jellicoe was the British Admiral and he confirmed what Sims said. If you have a citation in this regard, please post it.

Much of which seems to also ignore much of Germany's situation, and what is used is selective... thus inflating the American claim. The British and French may not have far better off than the Germans by 1918, but the key word is better. It may not have been by much... but they were still better...

And while I would agree that the Americans helped financially... that alone was not the magic bullet. For a well funded army that either won't fight or fights poorly is not going to be effective. In this, the American loans would have been worthless if the British and French just caved when the Germans attacked in 1918.

This is self contradictory.
 
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
In regards to the Zimmerman Telegram, it looks like it really did--among other things--aim to get Japan to end its war against Germany:


Here's the text of the Zimmerman Telegram itself:


TELEGRAM RECEIVED
FROM 2nd from London # 5747.

"We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement in detail is left to you. You will inform the President of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States of America is certain and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves. Please call the President's attention to the fact that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England in a few months to make peace." Signed, ZIMMERMANN.
 
Joined May 2020
1,555 Posts | 598+
With the Old Ball and Chain
In regards to the Zimmerman Telegram, it looks like it really did--among other things--aim to get Japan to end its war against Germany:


Here's the text of the Zimmerman Telegram itself:


I stand humbly corrected on this point. It is doubtless, however, that Japan would ever accept such an offer.
 
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Joined Oct 2010
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I've provided my sources, so this point is without merit. On the other hand, you have not provided any.
You have not. You citiation is without merit if it is not done properly.

You have not without page number it;'s meaningless people cannpot easily check what you have said and echk teh context it was said in.

Please cite page number. Citing sources properly is important.

I don't have the tiem right now to go into the details and provide sources but will return.
 
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Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Next, World War I Databook by Cox and Ellis reveals that in 1918, the U.S. produced 2.60 million tons of shipping compared to 1.35 million tons for the British; thus in 1918 the US accounted for close to 60% of all Allied shipbuilding. Adding to this, in March of 1918, the U.S. "requisitioned" around 130 Dutch merchant ships in their ports while also pressuring Latin American nations to hand over any interned German vessels in their ports. To put this into perspective:


Well I got source taht diagrees.

The Anglo-American Atlantic convoy system in World War I, 1917-18. (Volumes I and II) Stackhouse, Glenn Ansel, Jr., Ph.D. University of South Carolina, 1993
page 444.

gives1,628,053 US and 1.545,161 for Brirtian in tons constructed in 1918

This is tions delivered to US shipping Board and the British Admirality.

Cox and Ellis might be counting inlnad shipping.? or tonnage seized form the central powers in US ports?
 
Joined Jan 2017
7,817 Posts | 3,302+
Republika Srpska
As I've already cited, the blockade is extremely overstated and mass starvation never broke out; that was myth and has been refuted by most modern research. As for the Anglo-French, they can't defend if they have no oil, food or munitions, can they? And all of that depended on American entry by this stage of the war.
How can the blockade be overstated? Germany was starving, it is estimated that around 80,000 starved to death during the Turnip Winter, there were food riots and social instability. Was the blockade the decisive factor? Probably not, but it was a significant one nonetheless.
 
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
No because the quotes are from his 1935 book The Submarine Menace; he had no reason then to be diplomatic.

The Late introduction of conoys was a polictical issue and one were Jellicoe came in for serious criticism. Sim was also personal friend.
He defending himself against criticism.
 
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
Britian was exporting about 1/3 the value of her imports,. remember not all imports were form the US and places like Canada they could just pay with pounds.

btian had not compuslory acquired all US held secutries.
 
Joined Jan 2017
11,739 Posts | 5,015+
Sydney
no starvation in Germany !! ?? , you would better expound on this one , I would very much like to known
 
Joined Jun 2012
7,405 Posts | 485+
At present SD, USA
With respect, I fail to see your point. The how is irrelevant to the fact it did survive and we can compare the German position of April 1917 to those of the Entente. According to the British, they would run out of money in April of 1917, grain in May of 1917, and Oil in June of 1917. The French, meanwhile, gave November 1917 as the absolute latest they could stay in the conflict. Germany did not seek terms until November of 1918. Simple math dictates what will happen here.

It's irrelevant when looking at HOW Germany survived. Had Germany NOT been at war and NOT been cut off from international trade that it was, it would NOT have engaged in the sort of inflationary spending that it did to fund their war effort. They were caught in blockade with only the resources of Germany and their conquered lands available to them. In this, if Germany was to win at all, they either A) had to win quick or B) simply print more money and fix the prices, despite the fact that this would into a highly inflationary currency that could become worthless the longer the war went on and this method of spending continued. And it's really this kind of spending that put Germany in the financial position it was in AFTER the war. In this, it was NOT the Versailles Treaty that gave Germany problems but its own means of survival in terms of funding the war.

And by April of 1917, that path was closing for the Anglo-French unless they got the U.S. involved....which shows the U.S. played the key role.

Maybe... maybe not. If Germany can simply print more money, so can Britain and France. It'd be risky and unwise from a financial standpoint, but given that both the French and British had committed themselves to victory, and that their armies were not broken in 1916 or 1917... it'd be quite likely that had the US not come in, they would have made decisions similar to Germany on the gamble that they could make up their losses through the spoils of the victory.

No, it was as depicted; otherwise, how did food rations increase year over year after the doldrums of 1916? And the battles that year had no effect, quite the opposite; under the Hindenburg Programme nearly a million men were demobilized, not sucked out of Germany.

But did they really increase? Germany might have a better harvest in 1917, but they were still having to feed a country that was at war on two fronts... and if it was increasing on its own... Germany would have had no reason for the terms that it demanded of Russia in 1917 in the negotiations of Brest-Litovsk, which would ultimately include massive financial compensation to Germany, showing the weaknesses in Germany's finances...

See: The Peace Treaty of Brest-Litovsk - World War I Document Archive, Including Appendices: Russia-Germany, Part I - World War I Document Archive (note Article 6 and 7), Including Appendices: Russia-Germany, Part II - World War I Document Archive, Including Appendices: The Russian Fleet - World War I Document Archive

Now, the appendices in Part II and regarding the Russian fleet may not be as valid... but if Germany was doing so well on its own in 1917, the importation of food from Russia/Ukraine would not have been part of the treaty. And in this, it is quite likely that any increase in German food rations had MORE to do with Russia surrendering and allowing the Germans to essentially loot what they needed to survive.

And while the Hindenburg Program may have brought people back to Germany... that doesn't make it success. And in fact from a certain point of view, the program was a failure... The Hindenburg Program of 1916: A Central Experiment in Wartime Planning | T. Hunt Tooley. Which would again make 1916 a pivotal year and not one in which the war was in Germany's favor.

British grain runs out in May of 1917. Germany survived until November of 1918. Again, simple math dictates where the two sides were before American entry.

Again... you're ignoring the context of how Germany survived and assuming that Britain couldn't or wouldn't change its methods should America not enter the war.

Japan was already in the war versus Germany so, again, Japan had nothing to do with the telegram. If you have evidence, please cite it.

Japan was at war, yes, but that didn't mean that Germany wasn't about to try and use them. See: The Zimmermann Telegram and here: Telegram with a Translation of the Zimmermann Telegram | DocsTeach for the translation. Japan is clearly invited to work with Mexico in the proposed war with the US and to allow Mexico to mediate a separate peace between Japan and Germany.

Now... Japan may not have accepted it, and Mexico ultimately didn't either. But the fact still remains that Germany in desperation tried to get it to happen with the expectation that America would come into the war anyway.

Admiral Jellicoe was the British Admiral and he confirmed what Sims said. If you have a citation in this regard, please post it.

Jellicoe was a British Admiral, yes. And yes he did agree with Simms... but that agreement is not proof in and of itself. For Sims didn't invent the convoy system. He may well have argued for it, but that does NOT mean that he was the one who invented the system or that the Americans were the only ones capable of making it work. The fact that Jellicoe and Sims would agree on the need for convoys would also prove that. It would prove that they agreed on the tactic to answer the U-boats but not that America was so necessary that Britain could have transferred ships over if they had to.

And at the same time it should be kept in mind as to the personalities of the men in question when deciding to rely on them as sources. Sims, an American admiral, coming in late to the war is naturally going to try and play up America's involvement in the war. As the US Navy didn't really arrive in force until closer to late 1917 to 1918 with regard to front line ships to join in the British blockade. As such they'd missed the Battle of Jutland and the other north sea naval actions of 1916. Thus, Sims would want to play up America's role in fighting the U-boats and claim he'd saved Britain from starvation... based on Britain's practices at the time.

And Jellicoe... Keep in mind that with Jellicoe, a lot of his career was dogged by criticisms of his caution, particularly with regard to his pursuit of the Germans after the end of the Battle of Jutland in 1916. There he'd made the decision to essentially let the Germans go rather than rush into likely mine laden waters when the strategic objective for the British, the sustaining of their blockade was achieved. It may not have been bold... but the decision was realistic and could be described as sound. And that kind of caution likely remained with him. Thus by 1917 when the arguments over convoys began, he took Sims as an ally in arguing for convoys because it would mean he wouldn't have to transfer ships from blockade duty to anti-submarine duty. If the situation changes... it would be likely that ultimately the response would change.

This is self contradictory.

No. No it isn't.

Getting help from someone does not necessarily mean that that help was absolutely needed and that there were no other options.
 

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