America's failed war on drugs

Joined Jul 2015
16,914 Posts | 9,355+
Netherlands
A big part of the USA's drug problem is due to legally sold drugs. Should you shoot all those doctors and pharmacists too, or are they not responsible since it was all legal? The opioid addiction is where the road to fentanyl started for countless people.
Now there's an idea.

Personally I favor the El Salvador way. If justice is failing, there needs to be a reset.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leftyhunter
Joined Nov 2019
4,044 Posts | 2,898+
United States
Fentanyl killed over 100,000 people last year in the United States. It was the #1 killer of people below the age of 45. The Fentanyl that is killing people is NOT from prescription based applications. Fentanyl is coming primarily across our Southern Borders by cartels. You can't stop this deadly impact and the destruction of inner cities until you concentrate efforts on stopping the flow of Fentanyl, and stop the street markets and life of Fentanyl users.

Its a simple choice; turn cities into horrible places no one will go to anymore, or stop the drug epidemic.+


 
  • Like
Reactions: Leftyhunter
Joined Oct 2010
17,025 Posts | 4,448+
That's a "pipe dream". The USA's "Opioid/Meth Epidemic" from 1990s onward is proof positive, in which authorities for a while took a blind eye to all the (legal)( via scrip) opioids being marketed to America by Big Pharma.

And... here we are.

No, Completely different That the pushing of opioids by big pharma on to people in pain.
 
Joined Jun 2012
15,528 Posts | 2,868+
Malaysia
Somehow I find it hard to believe that complete legalisation would be the solution.

This might be a poor analogy, but I reckon that legalising would be like making candy free for kids. It might just end up making them want candy for breakfast, morning coffee break, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silesius Smithee
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Last edited:
Now there's an idea.

Personally I favor the El Salvador way. If justice is failing, there needs to be a reset.

Send them to Junkietown. Set up a town in the middle of the desert away from the rest of us where junkies can have all the drugs they want. Only give them soporifics like cannabis, benzodiazepines, and opioids to keep the inmates manageable, not stimulants. Perhaps once a year or so they can apply for rehab. If they complete rehab, let them stay in a halfway house where they can start applying for jobs before being reintroduced to society.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leftyhunter
Joined Nov 2014
1,011 Posts | 291+
United Kingdom
It's been done, just ask the British about "Opium".

If you think the Government can be any more competent or efficient, or even less ruthless, than the Mafia on this sort of thing then, well, you've never actually worked for the government have you?
None of what you said made any logic, the opium war was an invader forcing a govt to let drugs in. thats like saying mexico conquered the USA and forced the govt to leave the drug dealers alone. Of course it ended badly. Would a govt run lab produce higher quality safer drugs than a guy in his bedroom, of course, what are you talking about, also more ruthless than the mafia what are you talking about, would one govt run shop do a hit on another shop, of course not. Starting to think you were on drug’s when you wrote this
 
Joined Nov 2014
1,011 Posts | 291+
United Kingdom
That's a "pipe dream". The USA's "Opioid/Meth Epidemic" from 1990s onward is proof positive, in which authorities for a while took a blind eye to all the (legal)( via scrip) opioids being marketed to America by Big Pharma.

And... here we are
Somehow I find it hard to believe that complete legalisation would be the solution.

This might be a poor analogy, but I reckon that legalising would be like making candy free for kids. It might just end up making them want candy for breakfast, morning coffee break, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.
It rea comes down to 2 options, first make It illegal and try to stop it, well we tried that and the result is increased cartel power, increased crime and killings increased drug use, if we look 10 years ahead can we say this will continue to get worse or better if we continue with this course of action. Second option legalise everything. All the kids in my area are doing and a big part of the attraction is that is a cool cause it’s illegal. At the very least you deprive cartels of their money and power and stop drug related crime
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leftyhunter
Joined Nov 2019
4,044 Posts | 2,898+
United States
I think with the cartels the only answer is to treat them as terrorists, and go after them with special forces and not worry about the law enforcement angle. In much of Northern Mexico they have become the defacto government. I'm not interested in setting up a new government in Northern Mexico, that is Mexico's problem, I am worried about the extermination of the cartels, pure and simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silesius Smithee
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Last edited:
I think with the cartels the only answer is to treat them as terrorists, and go after them with special forces and not worry about the law enforcement angle. In much of Northern Mexico they have become the defacto government. I'm not interested in setting up a new government in Northern Mexico, that is Mexico's problem, I am worried about the extermination of the cartels, pure and simple.
They have been doing that for decades. When they take down a cartel, another rises to take its place. Junkietown is the solution. Legalise drugs and make them available for free to everyone in Junkietown. The drugs are regulated like other medicines so there will be fewer fatalities. It kills the cartels' business model. It is way cheaper than current policies. And it keeps junkies away from the rest of us, which eliminates 60-80% of all crime.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Graham S and Murffy
Joined Nov 2019
4,044 Posts | 2,898+
United States
They have been doing that for decades. When they take down a cartel, another rises to take its place. Junkietown is the solution. Legalise drugs and make them available for free to everyone in Junkietown. The drugs are regulated like other medicines so there will be fewer fatalities. It kills the cartels' business model. It is way cheaper than current policies. And it keeps junkies away from the rest of us.
You mean the Mexican government in theory does that. I don't know how much you read or watch the documentaries on Northern Mexico, but it well worth the time to see what is actually going on with these "attempts" by the Mexican government. First of all the Mexican government itself is strife with cartels influence and money, sooooo, start there, and then as you get closer to the North, or any of the other cartel strongholds, it becomes 1 million times worse.

No this takes a direct action by this country with US forces and drone strikes, and no complimentary working scenario with untrustworthy Mexican officials.
 
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
You mean the Mexican government in theory does that. I don't know how much you read or watch the documentaries on Northern Mexico, but it well worth the time to see what is actually going on with these "attempts" by the Mexican government. First of all the Mexican government itself is strife with cartels influence and money, sooooo, start there, and then as you get closer to the North, or any of the other cartel strongholds, it becomes 1 million times worse.

No this takes a direct action by this country with US forces and drone strikes, and no complimentary working scenario with untrustworthy Mexican officials.

There is a long list of cartels that have been taken down by either the US or Mexico. The ones that take their place are invariably more vicious than the preceding ones.
 
Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
Last edited:
Now there's an idea.

Personally I favor the El Salvador way. If justice is failing, there needs to be a reset.
The problem with the El Salvador way is that in 99% of similar cases, these arbitrary arrests bleed out into the rest of the society. All fun and games until the government decides to target you next.
Send them to Junkietown. Set up a town in the middle of the desert away from the rest of us where junkies can have all the drugs they want. Only give them soporifics like cannabis, benzodiazepines, and opioids to keep the inmates manageable, not stimulants. Perhaps once a year or so they can apply for rehab. If they complete rehab, let them stay in a halfway house where they can start applying for jobs before being reintroduced to society.

That doesn't sound dystopian at all.

I think with the cartels the only answer is to treat them as terrorists, and go after them with special forces and not worry about the law enforcement angle. In much of Northern Mexico they have become the defacto government. I'm not interested in setting up a new government in Northern Mexico, that is Mexico's problem, I am worried about the extermination of the cartels, pure and simple.
If you'd read a bit of history you'd know that this is how Zeta was born, one of the worst cartels to exist. Also, how do you "not worry about law enforcement angle"? What does that even mean, that you just decide not to follow laws anymore? Also, hundreds of thousands have died already, mostly cartels killing each other. Special forces killing hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands wouldn't change a thing.
 
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Last edited:
That doesn't sound dystopian at all.

It is one town. The rest of the country carries on as usual except with way less crime and more money to spend on public services. It is already being done with ... offenders.

https://www.insideedition.com/455-...-offender-island
 
Joined Nov 2019
4,044 Posts | 2,898+
United States
Last edited:
If you'd read a bit of history you'd know that this is how Zeta was born, one of the worst cartels to exist. Also, how do you "not worry about law enforcement angle"? What does that even mean, that you just decide not to follow laws anymore? Also, hundreds of thousands have died already, mostly cartels killing each other. Special forces killing hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands wouldn't change a thing.
I know a lot about the history of drug cartels. How much do you know about how the US and Columbia worked together to destroy the cartels in Columbia, and decrease production of cocaine by 72%. Here the problem is the Mexican government admitting that they are on the verge of losing control of their own nation.

The neat thing about technology is how much damage you can do at choke points in production and supply.

China produces most of the base product for Fentanyl production in Mexico, then ships it to Mexico where it is made into either capsules or other means for transportation across the Southern Border. I would use naval forces to interdict ships containing Fentanyl raw goods for production in Mexico, international law proscribes such shipments, so the US Navy has international law on their side to stop such ships, and investigate their contents for such items.

I would place all known cartel members and individuals who associate with them on a list of narco-terrorists, I would make their arrest if they enter the US regardless of whether or not they have any nation's ambassadorial imprimatur.

Then I would use a lot of the current means the USAF has to obtain SIGINT to determine locations of production and shipment in Mexico and interdict those on the ground in Mexico. Next I would continuously vary border entry to the US with high concentrations of random searches, and the use of high end spectroscopy techniques. I would go so far as to limit travel across the border to lower numbers, so that more detailed searches occur on every vehicle possible. I would increase the amount of spectroscopy evaluations on each train and cargo shipment. I would fingerprint every person crossing the border.

I would build the wall entirely, and disallow as much entry illegally as possible, with the requirement that all those who do enter with refugee status remain in holding areas until they have passed the court appearances they are required to accomplish. If there isn't enough judges to deal with numbers then those who did not first apply in Mexico and are from other nations other than Mexico, and who did not comply with UN regulations,by applying for registration as a refugee in the first nations they entered, are returned to those nations. Any who are not supplying valid refugee requirements would automatically be returned.

This is because the cartels use the overloading of the border services to increase their shipments of drugs, and you can't stop the drug trafficking if you don't get control of the border.

I don't believe in giving sentences for recreational users, however for addicts, I do believe that they should be required to go to detoxification/addiction facilities. I believe that individuals who are in possession of drugs like cocaine, heroin, meth, fentanyl and other opioids, and other class 1 drugs, in drug dealer quantities should be sentenced and serve the entire required sentencing.

The DEA needs to have in-depth restructuring.
 
Joined Nov 2019
4,044 Posts | 2,898+
United States
The numbers of Fentanyl deaths will surpass the total number of people who died in service in WWII sometime next year, in a period of the same time we fought WWII. Think about that. Right now the total number of deaths PER YEAR from Fentanyl is on par with the deaths that occurred per year with .....-19 during the period of 2020 through 2021, according to the CDC's numbers. Then consider that the number of Fentanyl deaths keeps accelerating in it's growth each year.
 
Joined Nov 2014
1,011 Posts | 291+
United Kingdom
The problem with the El Salvador way is that in 99% of similar cases, these arbitrary arrests bleed out into the rest of the society. All fun and games until the government decides to target you next.


That doesn't sound dystopian at all.


If you'd read a bit of history you'd know that this is how Zeta was born, one of the worst cartels to exist. Also, how do you "not worry about law enforcement angle"? What does that even mean, that you just decide not to follow laws anymore? Also, hundreds of thousands have died already, mostly cartels killing each other. Special forces killing hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands wouldn't change a thing.
Or follow the Filipino way of saying anyone who knows a dealer or addict can kill them without fear of prosecution, then everyone with a grudge is killing their neighbour and saying they were addicts.
 
Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
I know a lot about the history of drug cartels. How much do you know about how the US and Columbia worked together to destroy the cartels in Columbia, and decrease production of cocaine by 72%. Here the problem is the Mexican government admitting that they are on the verge of losing control of their own nation. The neat thing about technology is how much damage you can do at choke points in production and supply.
If you read from Wikipedia, it says that the 72% drop was claimed by the USA, whilst sources like the UN found that there was no drop at all. In fact, the production has been rising and Columbia is still the number one producer worldwide. The thing about drugs is that they're incredibly easy to produce. You might as well try to eradicate farming and gardening.

China produces most of the base product for Fentanyl production in Mexico, then ships it to Mexico where it is made into either capsules or other means for transportation across the Southern Border. I would use naval forces to interdict ships containing Fentanyl raw goods for production in Mexico, international law proscribes such shipments, so the US Navy has international law on their side to stops such ships and investigate their contents for such items.

Yeah, the thing is that you simply can't inspect every ship (you'd have to, since you don't know which ones have fentanyl). You can't even do it in your own ports, how would you do it on the high seas?

I would place all known cartel members and individuals who associate with them on a list of narco-terrorists, I would make their arrest if they enter the US regardless of whether or not they have any nation's ambassadorial imprimatur.
What is ambassadorial impomatur? You mean diplomatic immunity? That doesn't sound realistic at all. Sure you can arrest cartel members, but it's not like that isn't happening already.

Then I would use a lot of the current means the USAF has to obtain SIGINT to determine locations of production and shipment in Mexico and interdict those on the ground in Mexico. Next I would continuously vary border entry to the US with high concentrations of random searches, and the use of high end spectroscopy techniques. I would go so far as to limit travel across the border to lower numbers, so that more detailed searches occur on every vehicle possible. I would increase the amount of spectroscopy evaluations on each train and cargo shipment. I would fingerprint every person crossing the border.

Do you have any idea how much traffic there is on the US-Mexican border? Again, just like with the ships, you don't have the resources to inspect every vehicle, not even close. And how do you interdict on the ground in Mexico?

I would build the wall entirely, and disallow as much entry illegally as possible, with the requirement that all those who do enter with refugee status remain in holding areas until they have passed the court appearances they are required to accomplish. If there isn't enough judges to deal with numbers then those who did not first apply in Mexico and are from other nations other than Mexico, and who did not comply with UN regulations,by applying for registering as a refugee in the first nations they entered, are returned to those nations. Any who are not supplying valid refugee requirements would automatically be returned.

This is because the cartels use the overloading of the border services to increase their shipments of drugs, and you can't stop the drug trafficking if you don't get control of the border.

There are hundreds of millions of legal border crossings each year. What's the number on illegals, maybe 10% of that? You'd still have to use the same manpower to guard the wall, as it by itself provides no benefit.

I don't believe in giving sentences for recreational users, however for addicts, I do believe that they should be required to go to detoxification/addiction facilities. I believe that individuals who are in possession of drugs like cocaine, heroin, meth, fentanyl and other opioids, and other class 1 drugs, in drug dealer quantities should be sentenced and serve the entire required sentencing.

The DEA needs to have in-depth restructuring.
I doubt the law would allow placing addicts in mandatory rehabilitation. Especially in the USA.
 
Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
It is one town. The rest of the country carries on as usual except with way less crime and more money to spend on public services. It is already being done with ... offenders.
Well, you'd still have to spend the same money on the junkies. And it wouldn't be "one town", it would be the largest city in the country. Any country. And if you lump in other substance abusers, like alcoholics, with the drug users, you'd probably have half the country in that one city.
 
Joined Jan 2023
500 Posts | 403+
U.S.
By the way, the best way to reduce drug abuse is to invest in children.

Invest in:
  • pre-K education
  • extra cirricular activities & third places
  • free counseling for all children and teens.
  • resources to help children who are abused
All spending is about ROI. Spending $1 now to prevent problems could mean you don't have to spend $10 down the road trying to fix those problems.
 

Trending History Discussions

Top