Athrwys ap Meurig historical Arthur investigation

Peter Graham said:

I don't speak German, but isn't that footnote in the page you linked to saying that the attested form of Urien is Urbgen?

The Uu may be a red herring - it's a way of phonetically rendering the sound we would hear as 'oo'. So, Urien should be prononounced 'OOH- ree -en' rather than 'YOU -ree -en' as I suspect most people would say it.



Yes, but they aren't talking about Urien, are they? They are talking about a name that became Urban (popular with Popes). It derives from the Latin name Urbanus. I suppose Urien might ultimately have meant the same thing, but his name comes via a different source - mediated through Brittonic and Old Welsh to become Orbagenos, then Urbgen and finally Urien or Uryen. You can't really compare it with a name that looks to be a direct borrowing from Latin.

Look - you might be right in that in a time with no regularised spelling system and no regularised system of pronunciation, lots of names would be spelled phonetically, assuming they were captured correctly in the first place.* But it's another thing entirely to positively state that a name must mean (or is likely to mean) something else.

So, Athrwys might be a misrendering of Arthur, but there's no evidence to believe that to actually be the case. We can't just assume that because it just might be, then it is, and crack on as though there wasn't a cloud in the sky.

* One of my favourites is the Dukes of Buccleuch, who were big noises in this parts. The name is pronounced 'bu - CLUE' and the spellings of it in the Border papers of the sixteneth century are inventive, so say the least. But, put on your best Geordie accent and suddenly, something like 'bugloo' (or 'Buglugh, if they were sufficiently educated) makes sense.

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I don't speak German either, bits I did at school years ago, but it is saying that an attested form was Urbgen from a record from 818, may be the HB being referred to but not sure?

I agree with the second paragraph, to emphasise but also could be some lack of spelling convention as well.

I cannot see anything in the Redon Cartulary which connects those names to the name becoming Urban, they are just listed as names with origin uncertain. It is my own opinion but I am not convinced about the Orbagenos origin myself, it is thought to be the origin from opinion but there is nothing fact about it, it is reasoned conjecture which I do respect. I think g was rendering for y, the most likeliest answer and the name was Urbyen. The b might be for Urban but not overly convinced, it might just a b inserted, the name being heard with a b sound so the scribe wrote it as so.

Athwrys, I agree, might be a rendering, might not, I have just been addressing your categorical statement of fact, the impression that you gave, that Athrwys is a different name to Arthur. Has I repeated before, from evidence presented I would not like to say, might be and might not, I am slightly inclined that it might be, 55/45 perhaps, some of the later writers like the Brut writer aware of this and using bits of his story to add to the rest.

One which amuses me in the records that I have seen is that Conte is renderd and also reduced to Cont abbreviated and another letter used which comes after t in the alphabet.



Just two quick examples but the name was used as an oridinary surname in medieval record.

Peter Graham said:

You have mentioned this before, but why do you think the correct spelling is Arterid rather than Armterid?

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I do, the other rendering is Arfderydd which again looks like an f this time inserted into Arderydd, probably that letter being heard in the way the name was spoken, recited. Armterid, I can hear the m myself in the name Arterid if I say it with a different accent or way.

Peter Graham said:

How does Cuneglas link to Glastonbury Abbey in the first place? Isn't Cuneglas stated to be the charioteer of Din Arth? Dinarth still exists - it's at the head of the Conwy estuary near Llandudno in North Wales.

You aren't suggesting that the glas element somehow evidences a link, are you? It was a very common element that just describes a colour - or, more properly, a range of colours that today we would call gray or greeny gray. Glas appears in many place-names across the UK, including Glasgow.

'Cuneglas' means 'Grey dog'. It's got no more connection to Glastonbury than anyone called Steven has to Stevenage.

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I come at this from an academic angle and scholarly angle has much as I can but unlike many who are very black and white in their approach, I also come at it from the angle of trying to put myself in inside a medieval mind, the mind of the people, the scribe, the imagery, what they saw in their imagination when they were hearing and reading things.


You only have to look at some of the old manuscripts, illuminated and similar to see the imagery. I can also state as categorical fact that these images and drawings appeared in medieval plea rolls, certainly in the 13th century has I have seen them and if given time to look back over my emails, could prove this. Images of snakes and strange creatures doodled in the margins. This is why I approach subjects like this has said slightly differently to some of the very black and white approaches seen on this forum for instance.



ut quid in nequitiae tuae uolueris uetusta faece et tu ab adolescentiae annis, urse, multorum sessor aurigaque currus receptaculi ursi, die contemptor sortisque euis depressor, cuneglase, romana lingua lanio fulue (romaneranames.uk)

Cyn: is a common element of early Welsh names and would appear to come from a Brittonic word which has arrived in modern Welsh as cy; the Celtic word being cognate with the Latin cane, and even more closely with the Greek kynos – all of which mean dog. However there is another and perhaps better candidate for the meaning of the early Welsh name prefix Cyn(e)- ; that is the Welsh word cun , (readily interchangeable with cyn) now considered archaic and obsolete, which means lord or chieftan. This appear the most likely meaning and much more credible than accepting the cyn = dog etymology. Although the use of animal names, especially with sacred overtones, is not unlikely in Celtic culture, the epithet 'chieftan' or possibly ‘warrior’ makes far more sense as a name form - especially one that crops up so frequently in King lists. We should note here too that the word cun is also found in the (probably even more archaic form) cuniaid, which would imply a Brittonic form such as *cuniato. This longer form of the word could then explain the hanging vowel Cunein older forms the name Cynglas/Cuneglasus, which would come from an abbreviated prefix from *cuni- (ato). Glas: is the Welsh for blue. It is similarly cognate with the Latin: glaucus and Greek: glaukos which strictly speaking mean sea-blue, or grey-blue, the colour of blue eyes. The linguistic interchange is even easier to see when we understand that in British Latin the letter ‘c’ was normally pronounced as an ‘s’; so glaucus would become ‘*glausus’ in ordinary speech, the equivalent Brittonic probably being *glasos. Therefore the name written out in Latin form as Cuneglasus could indeed mean Bluedog, or even perhaps Greyhound, although it would more probably appear to mean Blue Chieftan.


If this is correct then there is another possible origin of the name Cuneglas, lord or chief and blue/glaucus.

We don't know how every medieval person, scribe thought, what they, the individuals thought were the origins of names, what was in their imagination, imagery.


(PDF) Cuneglasus, Ursus and King Arthur. | Dane Pestano and Mak Wilson - Academia.edu

'Ut quid in nequitiae tuae volvuris vetusta faece et tu ab adolescentiae annis, urse, multorum sessor auriga cue currus receptaculi ursi'


If this is the correct latin text from Gildas, where is the word 'tu' which signifies 'thou bear'? From this latin, from the actual latin it just says 'bear' which could be taken in a different context to 'thou bear' by someone reading?

Could a scribe with is own imagination, imagery, what he knew have seen Cuneglas 'lord or chief of Glas' and the word urse-arth and associated? Glas looks as if it may have the same origin as Glastonbury may ultimately have so would a medieval scribe, person have thought 'lord of Glas' signifies/means 'lord or chief of Glastonbury' especially with the urse-arth? No doubt there will be the usual statements of conjecture and no evidence but has I have repeated and repeated before, these are records from medieval times and the dark ages and there simply aren't enough surviving records and information to record anything as fact, there is always a degree of conjecture/possibility with everything. I am just exploring a possibility as to why Glastonbury may have become associated with Arthur, Henry II is too late for the ultimate association.

Killed this one dead so will let sleeping dogs lie.

pikeshot1600 said:

Oh, don't give up so easily!

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Hello pikeshot1600 (what does your username mean for instance, a keen fisherman?), you are right.

The Cunglasse theory was just a possibility that I looked at because of putting myself, or trying to, in a medieval mind with all it's imagery and not our modern analytical minds, certainly many on here.

The Arthurian Handbook - Google Books


Early Welsh chronicles covering King Arthur (legendofkingarthur.co.uk)


The Book of Llandaf and the Norman Church in Wales - Google Books



Property and Power in the Early Middle Ages - Google Books


I am not against Athrwys being a form of Arthur, cannot say whether it is or isn't/was, but I wonder if there was any kind of tradition relating to him why Lifris of Llancarfon doesn't make something of it, some linking to Arthur, as his work appears to have been written to honour it's house and confirm it's endowments.

The later dating of Arthur to the time of St David and St Cadoc, mid or perhaps even abit later in the 6th century is very interesting.

Peter Graham said:

I am undoubtedly one of those whom you are referring to as being very black and white in their approach and I am also one of those who bangs on about evidence. But I make no apology for either. We can all conjecture away to our heart's content. But without evidence, conjecture does not get off the ground.

I might conjecture that Arthur was from Cumbria. Lots of later medieval Arthurian tales are set in and around Carlisle, after all. Camboglanna, a Roman fort near Brampton, is only a few miles east of Carlisle and sounds an awful lot like Camlan - both contain the element *cambo- , meaing 'crooked. Aballava, the Roman fort at Burgh by Sands, is only a few miles west of Carlisle and means something quite similar to Avalon. Both refer to apples. There is a possible post-Roman Class I stone at Camboglanna and the fort is the next one along the line from Birdoswald, where we know that there were two large post-Roman hall complexes built on the foundations of a Roman granary. These halls appear to be the home of a leading local man in the fifth century which is about the right time for Arthur.

We know from the Historia that Saxons had been despatched to the region around the Wall. The famous battle list might then record fighting in the north of England. The Caledonian Wood is not that far to the north and Badon was a siege at a hill. Cumbria is very hilly.

So, Arthur defeats the Saxons sent north. He then dies at Camboglanna. His body is take to Aballava. Arthurian legends have him floating off across the sea. And what is this? Aballava is on the coast. Not only that, but it is the southern terminus of one of the two medieval routes across the sands of the Solway estuary. Edward I died here shortly before he was able to launch another devastating raid into Scotland via that very same route. His statue is a mecca for our Scottish neighbours, who come over to scrawl graffiti on it and pee up it. We couldn't care less about that on this bank of the estuary. After all, Edward was basically French. And he lived in London, which puts him beyond any hope of redemption. Anyhow I digress. So perhaps the story of Arthur's death is a mangled recollection of his body being taken across the Solway? Perhaps to be buried at the Lochmabenstane in Dumfriesshire. The stone still stands and clearly refers to Mabon, a Celtic god who also appears as a member of Arthur's warband in some of the legends.

Full disclosure. I decided to make a case that Arthur was Cumbrian five minutes ago and then made the argument up as I was typing. It's that easy to raise a hypothesis when you have a bit of knowledge. But just because that all might even sound faintly coherent doesn't mean I can claim equivalence with any hypothesis in respect of which there is actually some evidence. All I have done is built a castle on sand. I can't prove any of it. And until I can, I can't expect people to accept it, or write them off for their rigid black and white thinking if they reject it.



It's been a while, but I think 'urse' is the vocative of 'ursus'. The vocative is used when referring to someone. Gildas does the same with Maglocunus as I recall - he writes something like "Maglocune", which basically means "Oi - Maglocunus" or "You there, Maglocunus". So "urse" just means "you bear".

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Hello Peter, nice to hear from you. I think one thing that is evident and is fact is that there is not enough evidence to state anything as 100% fact or near practically from this period so long ago and from the medieval period as well. There is and as to be a degree of conjecture with every theory and statement as there simply are not enough facts and evidence to state as fact. This is why I had to address your comment about Arthwys which came across as if you were stating fact, it may be another form of Arthur or it may be a different name but from the evidence we have I don't think it can be stated either way, certainly not as fact. I make no excuses either for throwing theories into the pan like the Cuneglas-Glastonbury theory, it is conjecture but reasoned conjecture, we just cannot know what imagery a scribe or story teller living near 1000 years ago had in his head when he saw the name Cuneglas, how he would break it down, what he thought it's meaning was? I am not particularly convinced that Cuneglas was Arthur, the urse-Arth origin still just bothers me, Angor for instance in Y Gododdin was described 'like an enraged bear', but Cuneglas could have been interpreted as 'lord of Glas' and a connection made to Glastonbury? Cannot prove or disprove but just a possibility?


This one is interesting, if urse meant 'she bear' going further back to Gildas's time, it could be that Gildas was criticising Cuneglas, denigrating more than we thought?



As usual, some different answers to the meaning but the second link looks as if it agrees.


Interestingly come across this chap in the past in my own studies, had a shield with the image of a bear on it.

Good little theory Peter, even without full evidence and if tongue in cheek to a degree.

Camboglanna, there is a high chance that the g was unprounounced by the 9th century, it was a spirant, also in the Annales Cambriae there is a gap in the letters which looks like an abbreviation, letter left out anyway, ca' lan

The Welsh Annals, in the 'British History' visible here

Arthurian Perspectives, Marie de France notes better here

The Camboglanna ident is a very good one, contracted down to ca(bog)lan(na) and cam(bog)lan.

If, if there was an historical Arthur then he may genuinely have been active in your patch, if, camlann relates to him and it may?

I agree with you about Cat Coit Celydon and Arthuret 573, (Armterid, Arfteryd), I have long suspected that these two may be one and the same?

Even the Aballava/Avallana suggestion is interesting, Loxley is attached to Robin Hood and 4 separate Loxleys in England have Robin Hood traditions. One of these Loxleys was originally attached to Robin Hood at whatever time and because of that the other Loxleys have been assigned the tradition is the only reasonable likelihood or conclusion? The Sloane MS 'Life of Robin Hood' says that Robin Hood 'was born in Loxley or else in Nottinghamshire in the year 1160' so the writer here wasn't sure where Loxley was or supposed to be and guessed more or less. We likely would have the same process with Avalon being attached to Arthur, places bearing that name gaining traditions, possibly the places in France and others. Which was the original location of Avalon which became attached to Arthur? Could be any of them?

I came across an early reference to Avalon at Glastonbury, 1220s by chance, which I sent to Dr Padel and discussed with him, he found it interesting but again conclusions couldn't be made.

Peter Graham said:

Is it really?

In the UK, the A1 is the Great North Road. At points, it follows the line of bits of Roman road, including at Catterick (a site beloved of early medievalists), where the westward route to Carlisle forks off at Scotch Corner. Barnsdale Bar, where Robin Hood would intercept travellers, is now a service area on the modern A1. Boroughbridge is the site of the old tribal capital of the Brigantes. Legend has it that .... Turpin (or Swift Nicks, if you are from Yorkshire) zoomed up the road to give himself an alibi in York after killing someone in London. And so on. Yet, despite reeking of history, our A1 could not, alas, be called the Sun Highway. Although, on the assumption that your road is called that because people driving on it constantly have the sun in their eyes, perhaps that is no bad thing.

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They have done alot of upgrading to M motorway status along the length of the A1 and it is losing alot of it's 'charm'. Certainly from Boston Spa right up to near Scotch Corner it used to be tree lined and querky but is now just open motorway. I like the section in Lincolnshire south of Grantham, undulating. It is 12 years since I have been that far down so that may have been upgraded by now, like the lifeless section bypassing Peterborough to where the road forks at Alconbury.



The A303 is our 'Highway to the Sun'. This is a good documentary from Tom Fort, watched it many times.