Chain stores and independent retailers

Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
When I managed a bar (well it was a strip club with a bar) back in the '80s, a soda costs like 7c per serving, a draft beer like 11c . And we sold each for like $1.50.

"Scandals East" in West Palm Beach FL in the mid '80s. 730 Belvedere Blvd. More recently known as "Juanita's Cabaret". TRUST ME ON THIS: There's a REASON they keep the lights so low that you can barely see the "dancers". Swear to god, Last time I was there, I almost wanted to put on a miner's helmet and light up the carbide JUST to see what I was looking at.
Ignorance is after all truly bliss!
Leftyhunter
 
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Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
I honestly can't remember if we had anything to hold drinks - I do remember we had very large bags in case there were large takeout orders. If we had something other than a bag to hold drinks, it wasn't used much. I worked there years before drive-thrus, so no memory there.

The Dunkin' Donuts trays that can hold 4 coffees - solid cardboard - those must cost a fortune. Those must eat into the profits, especially when only 2 drinks.
They cost next to nothing. Especially when compared to the markup on coffee. Very few items are as profitable, even with labour and coffee trays counted in.

Going back to the discussion, I lvie in Mexico and malls are very much a thing here still. So are "mom & pop" shops, tienditas etc. But all of those are giving way to chain stores, Walmarts, Costco's etc.
 
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VHS

Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
They cost next to nothing. Especially when compared to the markup on coffee. Very few items are as profitable, even with labour and coffee trays counted in.

Going back to the discussion, I lvie in Mexico and malls are very much a thing here still. So are "mom & pop" shops, tienditas etc. But all of those are giving way to chain stores, Walmarts, Costco's etc.

One thing is: sales of products do not always require onsite services.

Let's consider things that require onsite services:
Dental works and certain medical checkups
Hair salons (OK, we have been cutting our own hair for a while.)
Nail works
Cosmetic
Massage and other forms of therapies
Please add to the list; I am not particularly imaginative.
 
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Last edited:
Let's consider things that require onsite services:
Dental works and certain medical checkups
Hair salons (OK, we have been cutting our own hair for a while.)
Nail works
Cosmetic
Massage and other forms of therapies.
Please add to the list; I am not particularly imaginative.

There is no list. In time these machines won't have to be used onsite; they will be available to rent out to people's homes.







The robots are coming. No job is safe.
 

ANH

Joined Jun 2011
301 Posts | 198+
Don't generalize ...

You remind me when I studied the business orientation: client, market or product?
Theoretically the dimension of the business increases passing from C to M to P.

It's not said in reality.

It's the same about the independent retailers. They seem to be destined to die, anyway in some economical contexts they survive very well.
Italy, for example.

In our country there are many little municipalities not so easy to reach where the chain stores are not interested to invest.
This leaves a lot of room for independent retailers. But also where there are chain stores, Italians can prefer direct retailers, overall if they offer local high quality products [regardless the price: Italians want to eat and drink well!].
Of course, if you'd read to the bottom, or quoted to the bottom, you would see that I actually covered that reality. My best commercial year was the one coming in to ..... because I'd adapted and personalised my business, changed demographic and targeted older customers in different ways.......that allowed survival and growth. Multiples can try but the problem with the multiples when it comes to bricks and mortar is that they are faced with the Internet. Personalised and local can outflank the latter in many many ways
 
Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
The robots are coming. No job is safe.

That depends. I don't like self checkouts, and I don't want to be at the mercy of a robot when it comes to haircuts or dental work either. There's always market for human interaction.
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
Of course, if you'd read to the bottom, or quoted to the bottom, you would see that I actually covered that reality. My best commercial year was the one coming in to ..... because I'd adapted and personalised my business, changed demographic and targeted older customers in different ways.......that allowed survival and growth. Multiples can try but the problem with the multiples when it comes to bricks and mortar is that they are faced with the Internet. Personalised and local can outflank the latter in many many ways

What advantages do local businesses have over major chain stores?
 
Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
Death (or at least decline) of onsite retail shopping is almost inevitable, and many developers are still clinging to mindsets of the retail era.
Keep in mind that online shopping is just a decade old (or a little more); it threatens the livelihood of onsite retailing.
We keep overgeneralizing that women enjoy mall and stree shopping; some of them probably enjoy "screen shopping" today.
Even so, time alone is one of the reasons that onsite shopping is increasingly less popular.



Onsite food and drink establishments still have a fairly substantial market; these places are often more for socialization and meeting as much as for foods and drinks.
If the focus is on products, online retailing reaches much more customers than onsite retailing.
Traveling is still quite a common activity, and accomodations for travelers remain fairly major businesses.
Was a time I thought nothing of traveling by car to Melbourne (452 miles) for a weekend. It too between 8 to 10 hours, depending on who was driving. We always stopped at The Murray Bridge Road House, about 50 miles from Adelaide. Terrific breakfasts and hamburgers

. Over the years here we've seen the casualisation of industry, especially in retail and hospitality. Here we currently have the 0 hours contact. That means a person is not guaranteed any hours but is always on call.

My local shopping centre has the alleged "Food Hall" where vendors sell all sorts of things, invariably kept warm in bain -maries. Does the idea of buying Chinese food from a bain-marie seem oxymoronic to anyone else?

This last six months, my local supermarket has done away with check-out staff, replacing them with self serve stations, which I hate. They claim not to have sacked anyone. They don't need to. Staff losses will be by attrition.

Funny thing is, I understand self serve check outs have already been abandoned in the US (?) Apparently due to a massive increase in theft. Gee, who'd have thought? Good, serves the greed b------s right.
 
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Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
That depends. I don't like self checkouts, and I don't want to be at the mercy of a robot when it comes to haircuts or dental work either. There's always market for human interaction.
What self checkout? We will be selecting what we want from an app and the stuff gets delivered to our door. Yes there will always be a market for human interaction. As already said in earlier threads, the percentage of the population filling these roles will be tiny.
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
Was a time I thought nothing of traveling by car to Melbourne (452 miles) for a weekend. It too between 8 to 10 hours, depending on who was driving. We always stopped at The Murray Bridge Road House, about 50 miles from Adelaide. Terrific breakfasts and hamburgers

. Over the years here we've seen the casualisation of industry, especially in retail and hospitality. Here we currently have the 0 hours contact. That means a person is not guaranteed any hours but is always on call.

My local shopping centre has the alleged "Food Hall" where vendors sell all sorts of things, invariably kept warm in bain -maries. Does the idea of buying Chinese food from a bain-marie seem oxymoronic to anyone else?

This last six months, my local supermarket has done away with check-out staff, replacing them with self serve stations, which I hate. They claim not to have sacked anyone. They don't need to. Staff losses will be by attrition.

Funny thing is, I understand self serve check outs have already been abandoned in the US (?) Apparently due to a massive increase in theft. Gee, who'd have thought? Good, serves the greed b------s right.

Due to NVLD (non-verbal learning disability), I decided not to drive (both visual-spatial ability and reaction are compromised).
Retail and hospitality usually mean "minimum wage earners" and often enough, these are temporary, short-term jobs for young
people instead of careers.
Someone mentioned previously that many fast food franchises are so unprofitable that they are scams.
We usually call such dishes "chop suey" in North America.
As for Chinese meals, we had relatively decent Chinese dinners in Washington, DC, Las Vegas, and Montreal.
I recall that you have purchased from Ebay and Amazon, and I am aware that Amazon Australia is much worse than Amazon Canada.
 
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Joined Apr 2020
2,082 Posts | 809+
London
One thing is: sales of products do not always require onsite services.

Let's consider things that require onsite services:
Dental works and certain medical checkups
Hair salons (OK, we have been cutting our own hair for a while.)
Nail works
Cosmetic
Massage and other forms of therapies
Please add to the list; I am not particularly imaginative.
A good start, I would add shoe shops and opticians.
Food places as most people like to eat out and on that them pubs and bars too .
 
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Last edited:
No need to go to a store for a shoe fitting.


Robots and AI are being used for optometry as well. They are already starting to get good enough to not require an optometrist.



We don't need bartenders any more either.
 
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Joined May 2017
1,470 Posts | 796+
Monterrey
What self checkout? We will be selecting what we want from an app and the stuff gets delivered to our door. Yes there will always be a market for human interaction. As already said in earlier threads, the percentage of the population filling these roles will be tiny.

Is Australia like USA in the sense that everything depends on cars? I can see that maybe working out there, but it's quite different when you actually live in a walkable city.

I do order from Amazon regularly, but that's when I know exactly what I am buying. But if I go to supermarket I usually plan what I am going to cook on the spot. I've checked groceries, costco, walmart etc on apps, and it doesn't work for me at all. So I don't think the future is quite as bleak as you think. I mean, peopl still go to cafes even though we can make coffee at home.
 
Joined Jan 2021
4,992 Posts | 3,605+
Conch Republic. "WE Seceded where others failed"
Was a time I thought nothing of traveling by car to Melbourne (452 miles) for a weekend. It too between 8 to 10 hours, depending on who was driving. We always stopped at The Murray Bridge Road House, about 50 miles from Adelaide. Terrific breakfasts and hamburgers

. Over the years here we've seen the casualisation of industry, especially in retail and hospitality. Here we currently have the 0 hours contact. That means a person is not guaranteed any hours but is always on call....
I've heard of "0 Hours Contract" as an actual "employee" as opposed to "Independent Contractor", but I think that's mostly a UK/Commonwealth thing. I don't know of anyone in the USA working a 0h contract or any employers using them. I'm not even sure it would be legal in the USA as a "contract" unless the purported "employee" gets at least some sort of minimum stipend just for being "on call". The essence of US contract law is that "something of value" must change hands; 0$ for 0h is not a "contract" in any meaningful sense of the word. THAT SAID, I'm sure employers informally do this sort of thing...."we'll call you if we need you".... it just wouldn't be a "contract" per se in the sense of obliging the employee to be "on call".

"On Call" in US Labor Law generally means "engaged to wait", especially if the employer puts any restrictions on time or movement i.e., "You must stay within 30 minutes of the office between 8 and 5 in case we need you" "you MUST answer the phone if we call" . It's distinct from the informal concept of "waiting to engage", "we'll call you if something comes up" which incurs no obligation to actually BE there to take the call.

(I've condensed into 2 paragraphs at least 100+ pages of employment law with myriad nuances. but that's the gist of it.)

(One nuance involves "minimum wage". You CAN put someone "on-call" for $0 extra if the total compensation for ALL hours (both at-work and on-call) is at least minimum wage and doesn't violate 'overtime'. That is, you can't make a person be at-work for x hours at minimum wage and then be on-call for ''y' hours at $0 extra. But you CAN do if the person is a skilled employee such as a service technician making, say, $60/hr at-work.... as long as tacking on the on-call hours doesn't average it out to less than minimum wage.

And FWIW, JM Business law, Emory University But I'm NOT a practicing lawyer and this is NOT "legal Advice" but merely friendly chit-chat.
 
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Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
Is Australia like USA in the sense that everything depends on cars? I can see that maybe working out there, but it's quite different when you actually live in a walkable city.

I do order from Amazon regularly, but that's when I know exactly what I am buying. But if I go to supermarket I usually plan what I am going to cook on the spot. I've checked groceries, costco, walmart etc on apps, and it doesn't work for me at all. So I don't think the future is quite as bleak as you think. I mean, peopl still go to cafes even though we can make coffee at home.
It doesn't really matter what we think. What matters is how the current generation thinks. These kids do everything they can to avoid human interaction. Their ideal job is something they can do alone in their room.
 

ANH

Joined Jun 2011
301 Posts | 198+
What advantages do local businesses have over major chain stores?
Good question. The answer is many. Firstly, in my own case I was able to put my name above the door and link it to the area that I was trading in. Secondly, I was able to select the entirety of my stock offer with no reference to a central multiple management source and provide services that I thought were missing locally. Part of this involved things like selling concert tickets for local promoters, selling the produce of local bands and the like. Scale-outs are common with Multiples but I used my individual expertise and local knowledge to good effect. Local businesses are also not fixated with targets and margins. They can introduce different forms of criteria into the pot and this might even include things that have nothing to do with business but provide a social capital. Most importantly, decision making can be quick and decisive. Whilst major chain stores can do many/most/all of the things that local sellers actually do, they usually don't. I introduced a form of barter into my business equation allowing customers to part-exchange media product against new items, opted to deliver items in the area, created loyalty schemes and car parking initiatives, even opted to talk in local schools to aspiring entrepreneurs about business.

The point about this is that Multiples rarely factor stuff like this into their offer
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
Good question. The answer is many. Firstly, in my own case I was able to put my name above the door and link it to the area that I was trading in. Secondly, I was able to select the entirety of my stock offer with no reference to a central multiple management source and provide services that I thought were missing locally. Part of this involved things like selling concert tickets for local promoters, selling the produce of local bands and the like. Scale-outs are common with Multiples but I used my individual expertise and local knowledge to good effect. Local businesses are also not fixated with targets and margins. They can introduce different forms of criteria into the pot and this might even include things that have nothing to do with business but provide a social capital. Most importantly, decision making can be quick and decisive. Whilst major chain stores can do many/most/all of the things that local sellers actually do, they usually don't. I introduced a form of barter into my business equation allowing customers to part-exchange media product against new items, opted to deliver items in the area, created loyalty schemes and car parking initiatives, even opted to talk in local schools to aspiring entrepreneurs about business.

The point about this is that Multiples rarely factor stuff like this into their offer

I forgot which book it was; the idea was that localization and personalized services are probably more beneficial than globalization.

Don't generalize ...

You remind me when I studied the business orientation: client, market or product?
Theoretically the dimension of the business increases passing from C to M to P.

It's not said in reality.

It's the same about the independent retailers. They seem to be destined to die, anyway in some economical contexts they survive very well.
Italy, for example.

In our country there are many little municipalities not so easy to reach where the chain stores are not interested to invest.
This leaves a lot of room for independent retailers. But also where there are chain stores, Italians can prefer direct retailers, overall if they offer local high quality products [regardless the price: Italians want to eat and drink well!].

Let's talk about our brief stay in Marcon and old town Venezia (and a few islands):
In the old town of Venice (or Venezia in Italian), most of the shops (if I recall correctly) were local businesses.
Marcon is a modern town near Venezia; we did not venture off that far from Antony Palace hotel and ate at Bavaria fest.
I recalled that they had goose pizza on menu. How common is eating goose in Italy?
This was probably the mall we visited there:
https://www.valecenter.it/
From the sheer number of reviews on google map, I speculate that Marcon is probably quite popular for tourists. (Marcon is both small in geographic size and population.)
How typical is Marcon as a town in Italy?

We had a brief trip to Murano (this only to the glass factory), Burano (a brief walk) and Torcello (a brief walk as well).
My experience with cruise ship excursions and visits to towns: these were extremely brief trips and the experience is rather swallow.
 
Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca

Is self checkout worth it from a social point of view as it induces theft at least per Michigan judge Middletown ? There have been lawsuits involving people falsely accused of theft by using self checkout so maybe it better to avoid using it.
Leftyhunter
 
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