Death penalty and the right to life

annelouise17 · Oct 13, 2013

kbear said:
agreed. murderers take away their victim's right to life so they forfeit theirs if they are convicted.

If we are sure the person is actually guilty? I just watched a episode of "48 Hour" and two juries couldn't decide if the man killed his wife or was it an accident. That is why we say beyond a shadow of a doubt before we will put some one in prison for the rest of their life on put them to death.

Louise C · Oct 13, 2013

SimpleThunder said:
It's not so much about that, but more about bearing the burden of being responsible for someone else's death. If you can do that, I dare say the death penalty was justified.

if the person had murdered someone I love, I would be quite happy to be responsible for their death.

annelouise17 · Oct 13, 2013

Louise C said:
if the person had murdered someone I love, I would be quite happy to be responsible for their death.

So would that make you any better?

Eamonn10 · Oct 13, 2013

Louise C said:
if the person had murdered someone I love, I would be quite happy to be responsible for their death.

It's a difficult question, it really is and very hard to judge if your not involved..I tend to agree with you that my rage would be so bad in the situation you mentioned that I'd probably like to pull the trigger myself. I don't know. When I look at that Ian Brady guy who killed those kids on the moors in England and wont tell the family out of spite where the last kid is buried, I feel that the millions and i'm not exaggerating spent on keeping him in jail would have been far better of used elsewhere...I know life is life at any age but child killers in particular i think are the worst humans on earth and should be put to sleep..no question.

Sicknero · Oct 13, 2013

I find the voting options too specific here.

Yes, I think that Capital Punishment goes against the right to life, but I'm not inclined to vote that "imprisonment doesn't go against the right to liberty". I'm also somewhat with Fox on questioning the concept of a "right to life" although I wouldn't say either that there is no such thing ... perhaps rather a "right to freedom from violence from others"?

I'm against the Death Penalty, on the grounds that the deaths of a thousand rightly convicted murderers are not worth the death of one wrongly convicted person.

Eamonn10 said:
It's a difficult question, it really is and very hard to judge if your not involved..I tend to agree with you that my rage would be so bad in the situation you mentioned that I'd probably like to pull the trigger myself. I don't know. When I look at that Ian Brady guy who killed those kids on the moors in England and wont tell the family out of spite where the last kid is buried, I feel that the millions and i'm not exaggerating spent on keeping him in jail would have been far better of used elsewhere...I know life is life at any age but child killers in particular i think are the worst humans on earth and should be put to sleep..no question.

About 14m I think so far, but escalated hugely by psychiatric costs, court costs for appeals, and medical costs incurred by his incessant hunger striking. Even so, I'd rather that than have one innocent person executed.

AlpinLuke · Oct 13, 2013

Human beings are social individuals and we should make the effort to reason as a species, not as single isolated brains.

Death penalty is not against the right to life, from a general perspective.

The sacrifice of an individual is acceptable when it's positive for the generality of the population.

What I'm underlining is that in human societies the individual rights exist within the limits of the social rights.

To kill [let's use this term!] a serial killer is in any case a way to decrease the social danger.

Are there alternatives? Sure, but these alternatives are not because of an individual right to life [we tend to forget this right about the victims of serial killers, maniacs ...], but because of a different conception of punishment limits [Italian constitution would never allow the death penalty in our country].

Sicknero · Oct 13, 2013

AlpinLuke said:
Human beings are social individuals and we should make the effort to reason as a species, not as single isolated brains.

Death penalty is not against the right to life, from a general perspective.

The sacrifice of an individual is acceptable when it's positive for the generality of the population.

What I'm underlining is that in human societies the individual rights exist within the limits of the social rights.

To kill [let's use this term!] a serial killer is in any case a way to decrease the social danger.

Are there alternatives? Sure, but these alternatives are not because of an individual right to life [we tend to forget this right about the victims of serial killers, maniacs ...], but because of a different conception of punishment limits [Italian constitution would never allow the death penalty in our country].

Is it though? It's not been proven to be any kind of a deterrent, and a serial killer behind bars is no more dangerous than a dead one.

Eamonn10 · Oct 13, 2013

Sicknero said:
I find the voting options too specific here.

Yes, I think that Capital Punishment goes against the right to life, but I'm not inclined to vote that "imprisonment doesn't go against the right to liberty". I'm also somewhat with Fox on questioning the concept of a "right to life" although I wouldn't say either that there is no such thing ... perhaps rather a "right to freedom from violence from others"?

I'm against the Death Penalty, on the grounds that the deaths of a thousand rightly convicted murderers are not worth the death of one wrongly convicted person.

About 14m I think so far, but escalated hugely by psychiatric costs, court costs for appeals, and medical costs incurred by his incessant hunger striking. Even so, I'd rather that than have one innocent person executed.

14m...that's astonishing and worse than I thought..how many good people could that money have helped....I understand your stance about the one innocent person and its a fair point..Its a complicated issue but i think Brady should have been put in a bronze bull.

Crystal Rainbow · Oct 13, 2013

I am against the death penalty, even though someone has committed an appalling crime of mass child abuse or murder. They should lock the door and throw away the key, they so never be considered any rights and never considered parole. Life is punishment enough, stuck in prison with other prisoners.

Louise C · Oct 13, 2013

annelouise17 said:
So would that make you any better?

yes, I should think so. Revenge is sweet.

Louise C · Oct 13, 2013

Sicknero said:
Is it though? It's not been proven to be any kind of a deterrent, and a serial killer behind bars is no more dangerous than a dead one.

I don't see how they can know it's not a deterrent. It would certainly deter me, I would think twice about killing someone if I knew I was facing the death penaly if caught, certainly more of a deterrent than a few years in some cushy prison, which is what most murderers get.

Eamonn10 · Oct 13, 2013

Crystal Rainbow said:
I am against the death penalty, even though someone has committed an appalling crime of mass child abuse or murder. They should lock the door and throw away the key, they so never be considered any rights and never considered parole. Life is punishment enough, stuck in prison with other prisoners.

I respect your opinion but I don't see prison for child killers like Brady as being any type of punishment at all. It's not as if their going to miss being out with friends every weekend having a good time and behaving themselves. It maybe a punishment keeping them away from kids alright. Prisons today are not like they used to be. They are in very comfortable conditions and have more mod cons than a lot of decent people on the outside...They don't have to go to work everyday to survive

jackydee · Oct 13, 2013

Sicknero said:
I find the voting options too specific here.

Yes, I think that Capital Punishment goes against the right to life, but I'm not inclined to vote that "imprisonment doesn't go against the right to liberty". I'm also somewhat with Fox on questioning the concept of a "right to life" although I wouldn't say either that there is no such thing ... perhaps rather a "right to freedom from violence from others"?

I'm against the Death Penalty, on the grounds that the deaths of a thousand rightly convicted murderers are not worth the death of one wrongly convicted person.

About 14m I think so far, but escalated hugely by psychiatric costs, court costs for appeals, and medical costs incurred by his incessant hunger striking. Even so, I'd rather that than have one innocent person executed.

Do you feel as strongly about any of the convicted murderers released each year from prison who go on to murder once again when released? Do any of these deaths affect you quite so much?

Sicknero · Oct 13, 2013

Louise C said:
I don't see how they can know it's not a deterrent. It would certainly deter me, I would think twice about killing someone if I knew I was facing the death penaly if caught, certainly more of a deterrent than a few years in some cushy prison, which is what most murderers get.

A comparison here of murder stats in different US states -

Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center

... and a discussion here of UK stats before and after the abolition of hanging -

Has the murder rate doubled since hanging was abolished? | Full Fact

As the UK article makes clear though, the whole issue is muddied by changes in criteria for government records as well as cause/effect being an impossible thing to ascribe from the information available.

The other point is, how many murders are actually committed by people who are likely to rationally weigh up the pros and cons of carrying out the action?

It might deter you, and I daresay it would me as well, but we are not psychopaths or people who can't control violent rages.

Sicknero · Oct 13, 2013

jackydee said:
Do you feel as strongly about any of the convicted murderers released each year from prison who go on to murder once again when released? Do any of these deaths affect you quite so much?

I said nothing about advocating the release of convicted killers...

Crystal Rainbow · Oct 13, 2013

Eamonn10 said:
I respect your opinion but I don't see prison for child killers like Brady as being any type of punishment at all. It's not as if their going to miss being out with friends every weekend having a good time and behaving themselves. It maybe a punishment keeping them away from kids alright. Prisons today are not like they used to be. They are in very comfortable conditions and have more mod cons than a lot of decent people on the outside...They don't have to go to work everyday to survive

I think the conditions of prisons, can be a cushy number for some. Like some respected member of society falls foul of the law can enjoy the perks of an outside prison and enjoy party's at the weekend like Jeffrey Archer. Unfortunately life is not fair and we see all kinds of misjudgement and people not getting properly punished for they crimes. I always think if they get away with it in this life time they will pay for it in the next. It is not for us, to decide whether to take a life, we would be no better than them.

jackydee · Oct 13, 2013

Sicknero said:
I said nothing about advocating the release of convicted killers...

Thats a cheap way out if I may say so. I simply asked if your feelings were as strong about convicted killers being released who then go on to commit a further murder. I did not say you were advocating anyones release, yet.

Eamonn10 · Oct 13, 2013

jackydee said:
Thats a cheap way out if I may say so. I simply asked if your feelings were as strong about convicted killers being released who then go on to comit a further murder.

If you compare the amount of murderers who get out and commit murder again to the amount of innocent people who wrongly get the death penalty, what would the numbers be? I suspect the former would be far more..that's not to minimize any innocent death of course

Sicknero · Oct 14, 2013

jackydee said:
Thats a cheap way out if I may say so. I simply asked if your feelings were as strong about convicted killers being released who then go on to commit a further murder. I did not say you were advocating anyones release, yet.

Of course you may say so, but I think it was a very unfair question. A straw man even.

We are talking about the rights or wrongs of killing people as part of a penal system, and you ask me what I feel about people who die because of killers who are released. There's no connection whatsoever that I can see.

If you insist on an answer, then obviously I have the same feelings about a person's death whatever the cause. But this really has nothing to do with the death penalty debate.

Eamonn10 said:
If you compare the amount of murderers who get out and commit murder again to the amount of innocent people who wrongly get the death penalty, what would the numbers be? I suspect the former would be far more..that's not to minimize any innocent death of course

I would probably agree ... perhaps not far more, but more. But then what reliable statistics are there ... there is no way at all to accurately know how many innocent people have been wrongly convicted and executed.

Anyway, this is well off the point ... opposing the death penalty does not equate to allowing convicted killers short sentences.

Vintersorg · Oct 14, 2013

Sicknero said:
Is it though? It's not been proven to be any kind of a deterrent, and a serial killer behind bars is no more dangerous than a dead one.

A serial killer behind bars can still escape, and if he manages to escape he will most certainly kill again.
A serial killer in a box, six feet under, won't escape, and won't kill anymore.

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Death penalty and the right to life

Does the death penalty go against the right to life?

No, once duly convicted, the right conflicted is recalled accordingly.

Yes, obviously. Imprisonment doesn't conflict with the right to liberty.

Yes, life is a right, liberty is not. It can be taken away by a court.

annelouise17

Louise C

annelouise17

Eamonn10

Sicknero

AlpinLuke

Sicknero

Eamonn10

Crystal Rainbow

Louise C

Louise C

Eamonn10

jackydee

Sicknero

Sicknero

Crystal Rainbow

jackydee

Eamonn10

Sicknero

Vintersorg

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